# Two different diagnosis **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [January 10, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023 "2025-01-10T14:57:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![TML](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TML](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/TML)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/121 "2025-09-22T21:48:12Z")
I think most modern surgical clips are made from non-magnetic metals. But nonetheless, surgeons should be discussing with their patients if they had to leave clips in or not. Just sounds lazy if they don’t take them out at the end of surgery. ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 10:48am UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/122 "2025-09-23T10:48:17Z")
So what I have been reading is something called muscle guarding idk if any of you have heard of this. Literally a few days after this surgery begins near my sternomastoid muscle got real hard. The actual muscle tissue isn’t hard just underneath it it’s very hard and crunchy. It says it’s your body’s response to pain or in my case a surgical clip that’s sitting right there pushing up my throat. It’s right next to it. I’m finding a lot of the younger drs don’t know about this and automatically say oh it’s scar tissue. Where the older drs will feel around and say I really don’t have much scar tissue. The younger drs I was seeing don’t want to go in and get the clips out yet because they are worried about more scar tissue but how can they just let me walk around like this with three clips shoved up my throat that you can physically feel from the inside of my throat. I think the headaches are coming from where my muscle is guarding or spasming and it’s just a pinched nerve that can’t get released from this as the one neurosurgeon said I have low blood flow on the right side. The younger drs I seen said oh that’s normal I said well it’s not normal to have a headache for months on end every day. I think I just need to find the right Dr and this is gonna be tough cause I know I’m gonna have to travel. ---
**Author:** ![Jules](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex027/user_avatar/forum.livingwitheagle.org/jules/32/404_2.png) [@Jules](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/Jules)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 1:44pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/123 "2025-09-23T13:44:04Z")
I’m so sorry that you’re being dismissed, it does sound like the muscle guarding the clips could well be the issue. So frustrating (& worrying) that Dr Ramirez has left the hospital, I’ll take his name off the doctors list. I’m sure it will involve travelling to get someone to take this seriously, I think that the vascular ES doctors we suggest trying for members quite often do revision surgeries, so maybe Dr Hepworth in CO or Dr Costantino in NY would be worth a try? 🤗 ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2025, 11:04pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/124 "2025-09-23T23:04:03Z")
> **[My Vitality](https://www.myvitality.store/?srsltid=AfmBOoquv9xHeocKodn5rvTRupwFCmC5y2qjnM_bPVNBrxjoxsrPCdgT)** > > My Vitality This is the first time I ran across something like this that helps for ES for 100$ it’s worth a shot and the reviews on this is great ---
**Author:** ![TML](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TML](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/TML)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2025, 1:24am UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/125 "2025-09-24T01:24:04Z")
Only thing I worry about that is muscle contraction around already compressed vascular structures and nerves. But worth the shot I would think! ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2025, 4:51pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/126 "2025-09-25T16:51:53Z")
Do any of you happen to know if anyone on here has ever had to have their surgical clips removed and if so was it a dangerous process or was the Dr able to do it successfully and they felt better after? My old Dr was asking me what was going on and I told her what the head and neck cancer Dr said and she said no I don’t think this is your issue and why I’m choking or in extreme pain. She said it’s very dangerous to have these taken out but me and the cancer dr can both feel these clips and confirmed this is what it is the one on the left is slightly moving that’s how high up I can feel it. She said she doubts this is what my problem is but can’t give me any explanation why. Anytime another Dr explains an issue I’m having such as my throat or headaches she disagrees with them but yet keeps telling me she doesn’t think it’s this or that but doesn’t know why. It’s frustrating anymore. She is a much younger Dr I think only has about 5 years on her. ---
**Author:** ![Isaiah\_40\_31](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex027/user_avatar/forum.livingwitheagle.org/isaiah_40_31/32/3054_2.png) [@Isaiah\_40\_31](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/Isaiah_40_31)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2025, 4:44am UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/127 "2025-09-26T04:44:37Z")
I’ve heard of a couple of people, possibly forum members from a long time ago, who had surgical clips removed. I know one of them went to Central America where her cousin lived to get hers removed because she couldn’t find someone in the US to do it but I believe the other person had them removed in the US. I took a quick look for any mention of surgical clip removal in our forum posts, but couldn’t find the one that mentions clip removal. I know it can be done, it’s just finding a doctor who will do it that’s difficult. Can you go outside of your state if necessary? ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2025, 12:13pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/128 "2025-09-26T12:13:58Z")
Yes cause I won’t have another choice. I’m wondering if all surgeons use this clips and if so why are they so hard to take out? ---
**Author:** ![Jules](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex027/user_avatar/forum.livingwitheagle.org/jules/32/404_2.png) [@Jules](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/Jules)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2025, 2:21pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/129 "2025-09-26T14:21:07Z")
It’s not something we’ve seen very often, we have had members post CTs of after surgery on here & haven’t ever noticed surgical clips on theirs, so I don’t think it’s a common practice… @babsbr posted about it recently: [Question about styloidectomy procedures and use of clips? - General - Living with Eagle](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/question-about-styloidectomy-procedures-and-use-of-clips/19955) There’s a couple of older discussions mentioning them too, but no real answers to help you, I’m afraid… I don’t know either if surgical clips are very tricky to remove, we have seen on here that many doctors don’t like doing revision surgeries, so it could well be this rather than it being a dangerous surgery? I think I mentioned before that the VES doctors sometimes do revision surgeries, like Dr Hepworth in CO & I think Dr Costantino in NY, & Dr Nakaji in AZ… As I think @Isaiah_40_31 said, people should really be told about thisif they’ve been used in case they have an MRI in future! ---
**Author:** ![babsbr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@babsbr](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/babsbr)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2025, 2:50pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/130 "2025-09-26T14:50:26Z")
Yes, Dr. C used surgical clips to close the two open sections of the artery he had to remove from compressing my IJV. I’m still early in the recovery process and patiently waiting to see if these clips are an issue going forward. Observing carefully with no advice or answers as of yet. ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2025, 5:23pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/131 "2025-10-17T17:23:49Z")
Who is Dr. C? And where is he located? ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/132 "2025-10-17T17:32:11Z")
Well I’m still in the same spot I was a month ago. I had to go through another ct scan, another barium swallow test, and a esophagram. I’m really just tired of all of this anymore. If this Dr on Monday can’t help me I don’t know where I’m going to go. Maybe back to Cleveland clinic to see Dr. Batillico. I’ve seen a couple new drs in between and all I keep getting is “You don’t want another surgery do you” no one wants a surgery but if these clips are physically harming me why don’t these Drs understand this I feel like I’m going in circles and talking in circles anymore. The Dr that found these wants to continue to do steroid shots which do not help at all and the nerve blocks help for about a day. It’s like they are trying to say let’s just try this for a little while because they are scared to go in due to scar tissue and they just want me to except I need to live like this. It’s beyond crazy that they can physically touch the clip from the inside of my mouth/ throat and he tells me let’s keep doing nerve blocks now and see a swallowing therapist. How is that supposed to help when it hurts like hell to swallow and I have a titanium clip shoved up there it’s not normal! I’m so tired of drs anymore I could write a book on the worlds worst. ---
**Author:** ![babsbr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@babsbr](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/babsbr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2025, 5:44pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/133 "2025-10-17T17:44:36Z")
Dr. Costantino NYC / CT ---
**Author:** ![Jules](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex027/user_avatar/forum.livingwitheagle.org/jules/32/404_2.png) [@Jules](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/Jules)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2025, 6:16pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/134 "2025-10-17T18:16:43Z")
I’m so sorry that you’re being brushed off like this, it’s crazy that they can be felt and yet nobody is believing that you have pain from them! I wonder if you could send your scans to Dr Osborne, and have an online consultation with him, to see his opinion & whether he’d be willing to do a surgery? I know you might not be able to afford that, but at least you could see if an experienced ES doctor thinks this could be an issue? Sending you a hug 🤗 ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2025, 6:43pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/135 "2025-10-17T18:43:30Z")
Where is Dr Osborne located? If you can give me his info I would appreciate it. I was trying to do this with the Dr at Cleveland clinic but they said with the first visit you have to come in person and the same thing happened for an other Dr up north from me. Yep I can’t believe it myself I’m finding so many drs just don’t give a shit anymore. They look at me like damaged goods or a problem that another Dr created. Although this would be my third surgery, I don’t know how they could think that this is normal in any ways shape or form. I said to him “you do realize I’m taking a bunch of pain meds I don’t want to take anymore or are not good for me” and he said yep your just gonna have to take them for now! Trust me nothing surprises me anymore ---
**Author:** ![Jules](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex027/user_avatar/forum.livingwitheagle.org/jules/32/404_2.png) [@Jules](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/Jules)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2025, 6:49pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/136 "2025-10-17T18:49:18Z")
Dr. Ryan Osborne - [Los Angeles ENT Doctors ENT Specialists Surgeons Cedars Sinai Medical](https://ohni.org/los-angeles-ent-doctors/) Here’s a link to the doctors list if you need it: [Doctor Lists – no discussion - Symptoms and Treatments / Doctor Information - Living with Eagle](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/doctor-lists-no-discussion/10245) ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2025, 7:48pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/137 "2025-10-17T19:48:55Z")
Thank you Jules I don’t know if I have ever told you thank you but I appreciate you all so much. 😊 ---
**Author:** ![Isaiah\_40\_31](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex027/user_avatar/forum.livingwitheagle.org/isaiah_40_31/32/3054_2.png) [@Isaiah\_40\_31](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/Isaiah_40_31)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2025, 4:42am UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/138 "2025-10-18T04:42:49Z")
> [@ShelbyH](#): > > “you do realize I’m taking a bunch of pain meds I don’t want to take anymore or are not good for me” and he said yep your just gonna have to take them for now! Trust me nothing surprises me anymore I can’t believe you got such an insensitive response from a doctor you’re seeing! I’ve had 3 ES surgeries & am doing fine. Not sure what the big deal is w/ these doctors not being willing to help you. I guess there are risks w/ the surgical clip removal just like w/ all other surgeries, but doctors do take risks to help patients in pain. Hopefully, if you contact Dr. Osborne, he’ll be more encouraging. ---
**Author:** ![ShelbyH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@ShelbyH](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/ShelbyH)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2025, 12:09pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/139 "2025-10-18T12:09:31Z")
Yes I’m finding a lot of drs that do not know much about these surgeries blow me off or just tell me to deal with it. Unfortunately the Dr that did this surgery is no longer employed by Henry Ford hospitals and no one knows where he is. I’m thinking at this point I’m going to have to travel. Anyone know anything about Dr. Artz in Grand Rapids Michigan? ---
**Author:** ![Jules](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex027/user_avatar/forum.livingwitheagle.org/jules/32/404_2.png) [@Jules](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/u/Jules)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2025, 2:06pm UTC](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023/140 "2025-10-18T14:06:04Z")
In this discussion one member asked for him to be added to the list, but I can’t see any more recent mentions of him I’m afraid! [4/10/15 Updated Doctor Lists - General - Living with Eagle](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/4-10-15-updated-doctor-lists/774/34) > [@4/10/15 Updated Doctor Lists](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/4-10-15-updated-doctor-lists/774/34): > > Hi there. You can add Dr. Gregory Artz from Grand Rapids, Michigan to the list. He’s been a great surgeon and communicator throughout my diagnosis and treatment. [Previous page](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forum.livingwitheagle.org/t/two-different-diagnosis/18023.md?page=8)