Probable Causes of IJV compression by C1?

I have no idea about this topic, so I’ll ask the doctor for the following:
Arterial Doppler:

  1. Measure volumetric blood flow (mL/min) and flow velocity (cm/s), not just velocity alone.

  2. Measure it on a straight segment of the vessel, never at a curve or bend.

  3. Use manual angle correction in the ultrasound machine’s software.

  4. Also record the Doppler waveform/spectrum and vessel diameter at the measurement site.

  5. Provide an image of the waveform/spectrum, like the image you sent me.

  6. In DICOM format or as a screenshot.

Venous Doppler

The same instructions for the venous Doppler as for the arterial Doppler, right? Just to make sure

@nemo an IR (interventional radiology) venogram with manometry (pressure measurements) is a common way (that several high volume surgeons on the list require) to determine whether or not the decompression surgery will have the desired result. If the pressure gradients above the stenosis are significant then there is a greater likelihood that the surgery will alleviate the symptoms. @Isaiah_40_31 can speak to this better, but I believe Dr. Hepworth has his own ultrasound diagnostics protocol that he believe gives him the similar information in a less invasive way.

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Good call, @Chrickychricky! As I was reading this discussion Dr. Hepworth’s protocol was running through my mind as an option. @TheDude posted Dr. Hepworth’s US protocol here:

2024_02_20 Protocol Ultrasound Hepworth 1.pdf (783.4 KB)

Dr. Hepworth’s US protocol measures blood flow velocities w/in the IJVs (straight sections) in cm/s. He believes anything above 50 cm/s can be indicative of compression within the vein. The higher the number the worse the compression.

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Ah same here. Got his video today. Almost the same as you. I’m in nz so there is no one here that can help. I will get a more in depth consult from him and go from there.

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@Isaiah_40_31 This is a standard Doppler scan, used to measure velocities. There’s nothing new or extraordinary about it.)))) Some ultrasound machines support the ability to measure the gradient based on velocity calculations. Many ultrasound specialists are aware of this. But the problem remains the same — the accuracy of velocity measurements. ))

First, we need to understand in more detail how this works, and only then can we claim that someone is wrong. His CT scan shows compression — what’s the point of that, even if we manage to confirm IJV compression with Doppler? Measuring the pressure gradient with Doppler is an even more complex and inaccurate method. It’s useless.

Everywhere there are its own challenges, and we’re all human, so it’s not a given that a doctor or an engineer hasn’t made a mistake somewhere.

Not everything is as simple and obvious as it seems at first glance. Diagnosis in medicine involves many complexities and potential errors.

@nemo Nemo, you and your doctors will still have to make a decision.No one here on the forum will make decisions for you. There is a high probability that it will be enough to remove only the styloid process (but I do not guarantee this, since there is a risk of fibrosis, and you have to make a decision and discuss it with surgeons whether they can remove only the styloid process at the root). You can start on the left side (С1 shave or remove muscle/or styloid only ----- you and your doctors will still have to make a decision ) and look at the change in symptoms, but it’s up to you and the surgeon to decide. (I’m not talking about pain, and maybe some of the symptoms are related to nerve innervation.) To address the pain on the right side, remove only the right styloid process down to the root. You can do a CT scan with a turn of the head, and from this, only the styloid process or an additional nerve compresses the veins (but this is indirect evidence and does not give a 100% guarantee). I was only suggesting to rule out additional problems with the arteries. All diagnostics won’t give you a 100% explanation.

I can also give you an example. I know a person who has the two-way compression of two IJVs, 95% on the left and 85-90% on the right, but he has fairly well-developed vertebral veins (and there is a bubble on the vertebral vein) (in the C1 region, and left a narrow jugular opening).His right side is the main pathway for venous drainage (vertebral veins,facial veins,and his right IJV is thicker and has a larger diameter, while the left transverse venous sinus is severely hypoplastic.). When the head was rotated on CT scan, they partially opened. We measured the blood flow several times on the Doppler and it was very good (with correct angle correction. In my case, the volumetric blood flow rate is underestimated by about 30-40% of the average norm). He had periods of crises, tinnitus on the right, spikes in blood pressure, severe dizziness, something like TIA, periods of mild intracranial pressure (which he did not pay attention to, it did not interfere with his life at all). He first performed surgery on the aperture, slightly straightened the vertebral artery, and neurolysis -the compression of the artery nerve (TOS) was removed. After this operation, his crises and severe dizziness disappeared, but the fog in his head increased, he began to suffocate more often, and pressure began in his chest, tinnitus on the right ear remained.

Then he removed the styloid process on the right by oral method, through the mouth (surprisingly, Dr. Tereshchuk removed it at the root). After this operation, all his symptoms remained, nothing changed, and even after almost a year. His only problem is that his tongue on the right side is not working properly (the nerve is damaged). The right IJV is almost completely open, there is no compression.

He hadn’t touched the styloid process on the left yet. He thinks he has a problem with the aperture (because when he click/presses in this area, the state/feelings changes). He has not yet figured out the problem 100%, but surgeons refuse to go into the aperture on the left, where there has already been an operation. That is, he has already had two surgeries, and is planning a third surgical operation

There’s also another acquaintance, also from Russia; she had only the right styloid process removed (external approach surgery), although the compression of the IJV on the right side was insignificant — only 30–40%, and she also had tinnitus in her right ear. But the left IJV was compressed by 80–85%, and there was also an additional pain symptom on the left side — tingling under the shoulder blade. She experienced pain in her face, ear, and neck. The main symptoms that bothered her were dizziness and tinnitus in the right ears, as well as elevated blood pressure. She removed the right styloid process, and nothing changed in her symptoms (apart from the pain), almost a year has passed..

So no one can give you a 100% guarantee.

It’s up to you to decide what to do — stop doing diagnostics, remove only the styloid process, or do as much as possible with C1 and the muscles.

I don’t deny that some of your symptoms may be related to venous compression. But I would like to see measurements of the volumetric flow rate and intracranial pressure. Although one side is partially open, and we may not see significant deviations from the norm.

Secondly, in this area of C1, it is not always possible to see the veins on the Doppler (bones for ultrasound are a hindrance, noise). And it’s 50-50 that you’ll see a vein in this area at all. And again, neither you are likely to know about angle correction, which is a big difference in the measured speeds( I’m not saying for sure, but perhaps Dr. Hepworth doesn’t know about the angle correction.). The values of blood velocities measured on a Doppler scan depend very much on the ultrasound specialist operator. Therefore, no surgeon in the world performs surgery solely based on the conclusion of a Doppler scan/ultrasound. Therefore, in medicine, ultrasound is not considered an accurate and reliable diagnostic method.

I’d also add that in curved sections of arteries or veins, it’s practically impossible to correctly adjust the angle, even manually.

“Smart people who know everything” read the instructions on Doppler scanning; you might understand something.

Figure 15.

pmc.ncbi nlm.nih gov/articles/PMC8248305/

10.4103/eus.eus_80_20

General principles of image optimization in EUS

pmc ncbi nlm nih gov/articles/PMC8607315/

Basics for performing a high-quality color Doppler sonography of the vascular access doi: 10.1177/11297298211018060

Knobology“ in Doppler Ultrasound

2021, Medical Ultrasonography

doi 10.11152/MU-3216

And I measured blood flow velocities 15 times, and also delved into the intricacies of angle correction with a familiar ultrasound specialist.

The doctors I know don’t use the doppler results exclusively to predict whether or not surgery is necessary or would be helpful. There are other tests/imaging that are also done to make the ultimate decision about whether or not to do surgery.

The only reason I put Dr. Hepworth’s US protocol link in this discussion was because you were going on & on to @nemo about him needing to get a doppler ultrasound to check blood flow pressure gradients. I was trying to be helpful by showing the ultrasound protocol for one doctor in the U.S. who orders them for suspected IJV compression. I was not suggesting the ultrasound would be the end all for nemo’s decision about which doctor to choose & whether or not to have only a styloidectomy or to proceed w/ a styloidectomy & C1 shave.

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Of course, I’m sure it’s much more complex than what can be seen in the images. For now, I’m going to try to get the Doppler done following the instructions you gave me.

By the way: Doppler of the vertebral arteries, common carotid arteries, and the IJVs, right?

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No problem. The more information I have, the better.

What I think I’m going to do is request the Doppler studies that @Filya asked for, wait for the vascular doctor to answer my questions about the pressure gradient test (I think she’s on vacation), and then see the neurosurgeon. I’ll explain that there may have been an error in the test and that I want to investigate the mechanical cause too, and ask them to order whatever tests I may need in future (dynamic CT, etc.) while waiting vascular doctor to respond.
I’ll also go to another neurosurgery team in Barcelona to have the entire case evaluated.

You all have more experience with this than I do. Am I doing the right thing, or should I be doing something else??

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I told Kamran that the pressure gradient came out at 2 mmHg and asked him about another possible cause. He responded with a video and an audio message:

https: //drive google com/drive/folders/1l2eZVVgInlT82DZDh9HOeovFQhUlM223?usp=sharing

@nemo Nevertheless, I found someone in Russia who performs DSA arteriography and venography with head turns, and measures manometric intracranial pressure (at least that’s what one surgeon from this center claims/says). This is Federal State Budgetary Institution “National Medical Research Center for Cardiovascular Surgery named after A.N. Bakulev” of the Ministry of Health of the Russian Federation. So maybe you did have your intracranial pressure measured, you just need to get an extended report from them, indicating the measured values of intracranial pressure in the transverse venous sinuses.

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To be honest, it will be a great victory if an ultrasound diagnostic doctor makes a correct measurement of the volumetric blood flow velocity (ml/min) or blood flow velocity with correct angle correction only in the arteries (which I strongly doubt from personal experience). And even more so measurements in the veins . You can take measurements in the veins, that would be great. As for having surgery in your country or in Turkey, it’s a difficult question. For example, many surgeons remove the styloid process and they already have extensive experience in this field /in this area of the neck (removing muscles is also not difficult for them). With regard to shaving C1, for a highly qualified neurosurgeon who knows this area of the neck (for example, he has experience and also removed the styloid process), this will also not be a problem, and he will be able to do it too.

But you also need to understand which structures need to be removed and how much C1 needs to be shaved (or maybe muscles need to be removed), and what needs to be removed if only the styloid process is removed, then only at the root (if possible). You should explain this to the neurosurgeon and ask him if he guarantees decompression of the internal jugular veins, and there will be enough space for fibrosis/scar tissue .Ensures that he understands everything (that it may be necessary to remove three muscles, the digastric partially, and the hypoglossal and hypoglossal, as Dr. Agaev does as much as possible/maximum). All neurosurgeons have a drill machine and it is not new for them to remove part of the bone .

But practice is very important in surgery. And if the neurosurgeon gives you a guarantee . You have to decide for yourself whether to trust your neurosurgeon in Spain, or go to Turkey or the USA. I’m not your assistant here.It’s just your choice.

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@nemo - The link to the video/audio message doesn’t work. Would you please send it to me again but in a private message. Thank you!

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@nemo, I think you’re doing what you can to ensure you have the most accurate diagnosis possible so you can choose the doctor you think will do the best & most helpful surgery for you. I like that Dr. Aghayev uses body fat to “pad” the IJVs so scar tissue doesn’t cause re-compression later. That is a novel & effective approach to help resolve a problem such as @Gina1961 had from her initial IJV decompression surgery.
(Surgery scheduled with Dr. Kamran Aghayev - #30 by Gina1961)

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Fat is an old technique for fighting fibrosis, and it is well known to many. It is good that Dr. Agaev uses this technique, but it still does not give a 100% guarantee that there will be no fibrosis.

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Yes I understand. I just wanted to know your opinion on whether there’s anything else I should do while I’m waiting, or if I’m missing something… (without deciding on surgery yet)

Here you are: VIDEO/AUDIO KAMRAN - Google Drive

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When I’m face to face with a neurosurgeon planning the surgery, I’ll ask you about everything I need to take into consideration and discuss with them, so I can avoid any mistakes.

I’m also planning to use research peptides during the postoperative period, such as GHK-Cu for fibrosis, BPC+TB,ARA290, etc, with the goal of getting back to 100% as quickly as possible, along with optimal nutrition, rest, and a proper rehabilitation and retraining program of course

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My symptoms keep changing. For example now experiencing a sharp, stabbing like pain in my left ear, which has never happened before. Maybe that could be helpful for the future diagnosis

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