New here, many symptoms, diagnosed with CCI and probably some jugular vein involvement

Hi

Sharing a few thoughts - hope helpful:

  1. Mr Hughes can help with styloid removals. He does not deal with C1 trims or CCI so far as I know. He can help refer to other relevant experts if helpful.

  2. C1 trim- I only found Mr Timothy in Leeds (private at Nuffield) who would do C1 trim in UK. He is a spinal surgeon. Unsure if are others who can help in UK.

  3. CCI- options in Uk are very limited. London has Chiro practice doing upper cervical adjustments, but they adjust below not at C1. Newport Chiropractic in Shropshire is only Atlas Orthagonal expert in UK who adjusts at C1 level. The only NUCCA chiropractor in UK sadly stopped practice a few years ago. Most of these expert chiropractors seem to be in US/Canada but a few in Europe I think. Travelling can in my experience make it harder to hold the adjustments.

There are a few instability physio experts who study/help CCI- one at Physiocure in Leeds and one by Wellington Hospital in London. Both worth trying to see for CCI help.

Getting fusion is very difficult in UK. Mr Timothy did my C1/C2 fusion. There is a practice in Barcelona that I heard EDS patients with instability use for fusion.

National Neurological hospital do not offer fusion so far as I am aware, which is very disappointing. I hope this will change in future.

It’s very difficult to have to hunt for help across UK and wider that CCI/VES patients need but that is the reality we face at this time.

Hope you find the help you need. D

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Thank you for posting all this information, @PatientD. I know it will be helpful for many of our members in the UK & beyond.

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I finally got the CT scan done and it’s given me some new and really interesting insights. Now I have a clearer idea of what’s causing my symptoms and what to do next, but it’s also raised some new questions. At first, the radiologist was unsure why I needed the CT, but once he saw the images, he said he’d never seen anything like it before.

Firstly, yes, I do have severe compression of both internal jugular veins, with the right side being worse than the left, just as I suspected. On the right side, it looks like styloid, or more precisely ligament calcification, is playing a role at the compression in conrast to the left side, where it doesn’t contribute to it. There is a small calcification further down on the left side, but it appears to be insignificant

I went through the CT images in detail:

Right Side:


SlicerApp-real_tyvj8Z4plc

The right IJV is clearly compressed. It seems like the transverse process of C1 and the calcified ligament are the main contributors to the compression on this side.
It’s hard to tell if the styloid and the calcification are fused together or if there’s some ligament in between. Maybe there is some contact with the artery at the tip of the calcification, especially with head movement.

Left Side:


SlicerApp-real_GqmpSBYIcd

On the left side, the short styloid doesn’t seem to play a role. The transverse process of C1 seems to be the issue here, with compression happening at two different angles. The upper compression (marked by the upper arrow) is at the “bridge” where the vertebral artery passes through, though this bridge doesn’t appear completely ossified like on the other side.

Here’s another view without the IJV visible:

It also seems like the internal carotid artery (green arrow) is closer to the IJV on the left side, which further narrows the space. I’m worried about potential irritation of the vagus nerve here, as it seems quite tight and the nerve has to pass through this narrow space.

Another thing that became clearer is that some vertebrae are noticeably rotated and not aligned well, which likely contributes to the compression:


SlicerApp-real_FbOx7pd93J (1)

When looking up from under the chin towards the atlas, you can see how everything is rotated. The transverse process of C1 on the left (right side of the picture) is rotated towards the IJV, while on the right side (left side of the picture), it’s rotated away. However, the styloid comes into play and narrows the space on the right side. Also the rotation explains why the compression of the left IJV without a styloid happens at all:

Overall, it seems a styloidectomy for the calcification on the right side could benefit me. It’s also clear I need to work on my alignment and posture. Right now, if I try to correct the rotation of the atlas, it might worsen the compression of the IJV on my right side, because the TP would be rotating towards my IJV. So, maybe the styloid is even causing the misalignment of the atlas.
My hyoid bone doesn’t seem to be a problem gladly.

Other observations with likely no medical significance:

  • Arcuate foramen (already known)
  • Right vertebral artery is hypoplastic
  • Initially, I thought there were significant calcifications under my right clavicle, but it’s probably just contrast agent accumulation (I hope), following the vein’s path after injection into my right arm:

Also, it seems I have an anatomical variant where my left facial vein/common facial vein drains directly into my subclavian vein instead of into the IJV. It almost looks like I have an extra IJV (green arrows):

I’m not sure why it seems to end at the bottom and if this causes any issues. This vein could explain why I get facial swellings with cervical collars and maybe even when looking down, suggesting it might get kinked and compressed.

I also had an ultrasound of both IJVs, which didn’t show any abnormalities. Unfortunately, the practitioner probably couldn’t reach the stenosis point since it wasn’t visible on his screen, so he couldn’t detect any high flow velocities.

I want to thank @TheDude a lot for his huge help, providing the adress of the radiology, scheduling the ultrasound, and even making coffee at his place.

My next step will be to try to improve my posture, strengthen this area to aid stabilization, try out medications like blood thinners, and explore other options (for example, nicotine patches seem to really help with symptoms somehow). I will also try vagus nerve stimulation to see if it does change something. I may also consider prolotherapy for the ligaments of the cervical spine and I will think about surgery or contact surgeons in Germany.

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@komok - You did an amazing job rendering your CT images into 3D & videos which you captioned in a way that is very understandable. I’m so glad you finally have the answers you needed to explain your symptoms & now can move forward with whatever types of therapy or surgery you feel is best. I do hope there is a surgeon in Germany who can help you with your IJV compression. That is a very specialized type of surgery & shouldn’t be undertaken by someone with little or no experience.

It’s really great that you were able to connect w/ @TheDude. He is a really great person & has been quite helpful on our forum over the years.

Please keep us updated as to what works to help relieve symptoms & especially if you do end up scheduling surgery.

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I’m glad that the CT shows what’s going on, and that you have a clearer idea of what needs to be done…the C2 does look pretty rotated as you say, so an issue along with the styloid & calcified ligament…well done working it all out yourself, and I hope that the treatments you’re going to pursue will help!
Glad you’ve been able to connect with TheDude, it’s great when we can meet in person to support each other too ! Let us know how you’re getting on :+1:

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Hey Andreas. Matyas here. I also live in Germany. I have almost the exact symptoms you descirbe. I do have HEDS I am pretty sure. Tho I have been living symptomsfree until 27 /28 . Im 33 now and suffer daily very badly. Did you have decompression surgery and did it help you? Im from Münster

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Hey how can you see velocity on your first picture you have posted? Like the first MRI? How can it be seen on an MRI like that? Sorry for all questions. Just trying understand.

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Hey @Matyas,

I think I’ve read about you somewhere before, your name sounds familiar.
I haven’t had any procedures yet, as I’m not fully convinced that surgery alone would fix my symptoms. I suspect it’s more complex and that there could be other issues, such as some form of abdominal vein compression, which might increase intra-abdominal pressure and negatively affect intracranial pressure. This is also mentioned in the webinar, if you haven’t watched it already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk-V3EbKIqA.

Additionally, I suspect some type of connective tissue problem that I want to confirm before proceeding with anything. I don’t think it’s hEDS in my case, as my Beighton Score doesn’t match. I believe it’s more likely autoimmune or MCAS related.

I also don’t know where I would go for this procedure, as there isn’t a C1 shave (which I would need) available in Germany, and I don’t have the financial resources to travel abroad. Getting the insurance to cover it would also be a hassle then.
All in all, I’d prefer to avoid surgery for now, as I’m very uncertain if it would be the best solution for my case. My next steps will include getting some form of abdominal scan, MRI or CT, and testing for MCAS.

To my knowledge, velocity can be identified if there is a color change from black to white (and vice versa). For example, in the first MRI image, the top part of the vein appears black, while just above, at, and below the compression, it shows as white. In T2 images, this indicates that areas with high velocity appear black (which is why arteries appear black), while areas with slow velocity appear white (which is why CSF appears white in T2). I believe this is the source I read that from: Time-of-flight effects - Questions and Answers ​in MRI.

I don’t know if this information is entirely correct or relevant, but I just wanted to point it out. As I mentioned, I’ve had an ultrasound without any flow abnormalities. However, it was probably not done correctly, as the technician didn’t check high enough, or the head position may have caused it not to show.

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