Possible jugular compression, CSF leak, intercranial hypertension. Advice?

I’m glad for the improvements you’ve noted from your AO chiropractic sessions but am sorry they haven’t helped w/ your VOO symptoms.

In a nutshell, these are the differences between Dr. Hepworth’s & Dr. Costantino’s approaches:

Dr. Hepworth “relocates” the IJV away from C-1 if C-1 is the major player in IJV compression. He also removes the styloid to whatever extent is necessary to get it away from the IJV.

Dr. Costantino does a skull base styloid removal & works w/ a neurosurgeon who shaves the transverse process of C-1 so there is more space for the IJV.

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Thanks for all the information.

I’m not giving up hope that the AO adjustments could help with venous outflow symptoms over time, but I just feel like I need a more complete workup to know the extent of my problems and have next steps lined up for whatever problems remain.

It does look like the right jugular vein has been essentially completely occluded (or nearly) for a number of years, so I wouldn’t be surprised if I need at least a balloon venoplasty and/or stent.

I’m also pretty convinced that I have a CSF leak which obviously the AO doctor wouldn’t be able to address.

Does Dr Constantino repair CSF leaks as well? I know that Dr Hepworth repairs them at the same time he performs the surgery.

Apart from their different approaches, are Dr Hepworth and Dr Constantino roughly equal in terms of experience with these conditions and good outcome for their patients?

I’ve not heard of Dr C repairing any CSF leaks. I think to date so far more members have seen Dr H, as we knew that he did alot of diagnosing vascular issues, so fewer of our members have seen Dr C, but I think more will in future who need the C1 shaving…

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I agree w/ what @Jules said. Though I found Dr. Costantino’s name on our forum back in 2014 when I just did a search, it seems there wasn’t much discussion about him helping ES patients until recently so we don’t have a lot of history regarding the long-term outcomes of the surgeries he does. From the post op scans that have been posted, it looks like his work is pretty meticulous, but the proof will be in how well our members who’ve seen him heal over the long term. Dr. Hepworth has helped many more of our members so we have more information about him.

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Well I called Dr Hepworth’s office today and I can confirm that he still isn’t accepting new patients at this time. I was told “maybe by the end of the year” and to keep calling periodically to see if things change.

I know he’s an incredibly busy man, so I don’t fault him since he can only see so many patients at a time.

I just don’t know the timeframe. Maybe by December or January I can get on the schedule as a new patient, but how many months out? And if I need surgery, how long after that?

It looks like I’ll be able to get a telehealth consultation with Dr Constantino on November 8th, so it looks like things are moving much faster with him.

I can still say that I’ve seen a number of benefits from the AO doctor. I’m very happy to have someone who’s actually helping.

In fact, I’ve noticed so many positive changes in my spinal alignment that I wonder if he may have eliminated the need for a C1 shave.

Additionally, to my pleasant surprise, Dr Taylor (the AO doc) has had previous patients with CSF leaks and knows who to refer me to if I need treatment.

He also referred me to a neurologist for further evaluation. The neurologist is actually a “chiropractic neurologist”, which is something I didn’t know existed. I saw him today for the first time.

He doesn’t do any chiropractic adjustments as far as I can tell. He’s gone through conventional neurological training like any other MD, but it might be more fair to call him an “alternative medicine neurologist” in that he’s working outside the constraints of conventional medicine and is able to do more cutting-edge stuff it seems like.

In any event, he’s going to do some pretty extensive lab workups and one of the tests is a Beta-2 Transferrin Test to see if the fluid dripping out of my nose is in fact cerebrospinal fluid as I suspect.

I showed him some screenshots of my recent imaging that shows jugular stenosis (many of the same ones I’ve posted on this thread). He didn’t seem overly impressed in thinking that venous outflow obstruction was the clear cause of my symptoms. But I did leave him copies of my images on discs so he can go over them in his own time.

I was overall impressed with his thoroughness and think he may be helpful in getting the workup I need.

I’ve also asked my primary doctor to refer me to a vascular clinic here in Southern Oregon, which is this one:

I’m hoping they’ll be able to follow up on the jugular stenosis and do a more comprehensive workup, possibly a dedicated MR Venogram of my neck or a catheter venogram to measure pressure gradients and the sort of workup that is really required.

You never really know until you talk to people whether or not they’re going to “get it”.

I’m sure people on this forum can relate, but one of the very frustrating things about particularly vascular Eagle Syndrome is that, not only is it rare, but it seems weirdly between specialties in ways that make it extremely difficult to find doctors who fully understand the problem.

If you’re lucky enough to find an ENT who has heard of Eagle Syndrome, or has even treated it, it’s unlikely that they’ll fully appreciate the vascular implications, given that they aren’t vascular surgeons.

On the other hand, most vascular surgeons and specialists don’t appreciate the role of external compression on the jugular veins or carotid arteries, and therefore won’t understand why a young, otherwise healthy person with no obvious risk factors would be so worried about vascular problems.

It looks like I’m finally on the verge of getting this thing figured out and definitively treated. Worst case is that I may have to wait a year or so (hopefully sooner) to see Dr Hepworth.

I will say that I feel like an AO doctor can be extremely helpful in this process, so I would really recommend it to anyone reading this who’s still struggling with this condition.

In fact, one thing I’ve noticed since I moved to Oregon is that there’s an interesting culture of “naturopathic” doctors and clinics here and some of these people seem to be very helpful in advocating for patients with rare problems that the conventional medical system is failing.

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I’m glad that some things are moving for you even if you can’t get to see Dr Hepworth for a while! Interesting info about the doctors you’re seeing too, I hope that you can get some answers…

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Great information, @jrodefeld. Thank you for sharing what you’re learning. I’m sure others on our forum will benefit from it. I’m sorry for the delay w/ Dr. Hepworth. Part of his situation is that his office was understaffed for many months & the new hires are currently in training & learning about ES thus I believe he’s trying not to over-burden them w/ a huge new patient load up front. He has plenty of returnees (i.e. those coming in for second styloidetomies besides all the other ENT things he treats) to keep him very busy.

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Wow I am so happy to hear that your AO doc has been providing some relief and you’re seeing improvements!
It’s so rewarding to finally have a type of therapy that you can feel the difference. I am anxious to get back to see my upper cervical doc again. I had also seen a positive outcome with the regular adjustments and look forward to more treatments in the future.

I’ll be starting PT here in the next week for neck mobility and look forward to the next phases of recovery.
Well it sounds like things are moving along for you, I am glad that you are in contact with some experienced doctors regarding eagles syndrome.
I hope you can get a good work up at the vascular clinic and that some clear answers come soon.
Wishing your all the best

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I had an appointment with a vascular surgeon that did not go well. He clearly didn’t have a clue about venous outflow problems and didn’t think my scans showed anything serious. He said he thought my right jugular was “a little more narrow” but nothing he would be worried about.

It doesn’t look “a little more narrow” to me, it looks extremely narrow, virtually occluded on my right side.

I was hoping he’d be willing to work me up in more detail, perhaps ordering a MR Venogram of my neck or doing a catheter venogram checking the pressure gradients, etc.

But he’s clearly not the right person.

It would be nice if there was someone close by who has a clue about this condition (besides my AO doc who is helping me), but I guess I just have to accept that I’ll have to travel out of state to see anyone with a clue.

My telehealth appointment with Dr Constantino was moved to November 30th at 4:30pm.

I’m sure Dr Constantino is a very good surgeon, but I have a few reservations about him.

I’m not sure about his diagnostic approach and follow up. I know this condition can be complex, with CSF issues (leaks), venous stenoses at various levels, etc. Does he work with vascular surgeons? Do they do angioplasty and stenting if needed? How does CSF leak repair fit into the equation?

And, if I have surgery but still have residual symptoms, does he continue to help patients?

If I had my choice, I’d see Dr Hepworth.

Does anyone know how long the process usually is until surgery with Dr Hepworth once he takes you on as a patient? From the time I’m able to finally schedule my initial consultation, to getting all the diagnostic workup needed, to finally having surgery, what is the timeframe for all of that?

Although it appears my scans do show primarily C1 compression, I feel like my work with Dr Taylor (the AO doc) may make a C1 shave unnecessary.

I’ve really felt benefit with him adjusting my atlas and we’re currently working to restore the normal curvature of the neck and elongate the spine to improve posture and drainage from the head.

Since Dr Hepworth doesn’t do the C1 shave, in my situation I wonder if he’d remove my styloids down to the skull base, and just relocate the jugular veins, and free up any adhesions and scar tissue that may be pressing on them?

Am I correct in saying that his theory is that you need two bones to cause compression and that the issue is really the distance between the styloids and the C1 vertebrae and thus if you remove the styloids completely you don’t need to worry about C1 causing compression?

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I’m sorry about your poor experience with the vascular surgeon. You’re correct. Without knowledge of ES & VOO, any vascular surgeon will be “at sea” regarding what you’re talking about when you bring up IJV compression/VOO relative to ES.

I can’t comment about Dr. Costantino’s experience w/ CSF leaks. I believe the surgeons he works with are neurosurgeons who do the C-1 shaving, but someone who’s had surgery with him probably knows more than I do about the types of specialists who assist him.

Dr. Hepworth does CSF leak repair & will decompress the IJV removing or moving whatever is causing compression, except for C-1. He will move the IJV away from C-1 if it’s still compressed after the styloid & other compressing agents are removed.

If you plan to see Dr. Hepworth it’s best not to get much testing done before you see him as he has his own protocol for venograms/IJV ultrasounds that are done at Vascular Institute of the Rockies so anything you get done prior to seeing him might be wasted time & money.

You don’t necessarily need two bones to cause compression. The styloid alone or C-1 alone can be the major compressive agent. In some cases, once the styloid is removed, the IJV opens right up even if it’s been sandwiched between styloid & C-1. In other cases, styloid removal makes no difference toward decompression so either C-1 needs to be shaved or the IJV needs to be moved away from C-1. In other cases neither are responsible but muscle, scar tissue, nerve or other soft tissues are the culprits.

I just received a voicemail from Dr Chambers (the chiropractic neurologist) that was very interesting.

He had ordered a Beta-2 Transferrin test that I just completed two days ago. For those that don’t know, this is where you collect fluid coming out of your nose and it’s analyzed for the presence of cerebrospinal fluid to see if you have a CSF leak.

They didn’t explicitly tell me the test results on the voice message, but they did say they put in a referral to an ENT doctor and asked me who my primary care doctor is.

I have an appointment with Dr Chambers on Monday, so I can think of no reason whatsoever that he would refer me to an ENT unless this test came back positive for a CSF leak.

This is very exciting to me because, although I’ve been very convinced that I had a CSF leak, I didn’t have concrete proof.

Is it true that in cases where a CSF leak is related to venous outflow obstruction, the CSF leak shouldn’t be repaired until the jugular veins are fully decompressed?

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In cases of VOO/IJV compression, the cause of the CSF leak is intracranial hypertension. The leak occurs to release some of the pressure off of the brain. If the leak is patched prior to the cause of IH being dealt with, the patch will be pushed off by the high intracranial pressure. So, the correct order is resolve the cause of IH then patch the CSF leak.

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Given that news , it might be better to hang on to see Dr Hepworth?
From what others have said in recent discussions, Dr Constantino is having some leave at the moment, so if you’ve not heard anything nearer the time it might be an idea to ring to check it’s still going ahead?

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I have a virtual appointment with Dr Constantino on the 30th of this month.

I would love to see Dr Hepworth, but I just don’t have any idea of the timeframe. The last time I called, they told me that they still weren’t accepting new patients and to try again in December or early next year.

The CSF panel was severe enough to be shocking to the radiologists.

They even put the disclaimer on the report:

Sample integrity in question. Sample testing performed per provider request. Please interpret results with caution.

I think the sample is fine, I took all the precautions in collecting as I was instructed. The results just probably are that far off normal.

Here are my results, along with reference ranges:

White Blood Cell Count: 26 / cmm Reference: 0-8
Red Blood Cell Count: 70 / cmm Reference: 0-2
Monoclear: 100% Reference: 98-100%
PMN’s: 0% Reference: 0-2%

Protein, CSF: 325 mg/dL Reference: 20-50 mg/dL
Glucose, CSF: 2 mg/dL Reference: 40-80 mg/dL

So, the Protein, CSF is 10x what it should be and the Red Blood Cell Count in the sample is 70x (!) what it should be.

I asked ChatGPT what the Red Blood Cell Count numbers meant and was given the response: “An increased RBC count suggests bleeding or vascular damage.”

I followed up asking whether jugular vein issues such as a clot could cause such numbers. The response:

"Yes, a clot or thrombosis in the jugular vein could potentially contribute to an elevated red blood cell (RBC) count in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) sample. If there is impaired blood flow due to a clot in the jugular vein, it may lead to increased pressure within the blood vessels, potentially causing leakage of red blood cells into the CSF.

Jugular vein compression or clotting can affect the venous drainage from the brain, and the associated changes in blood flow dynamics can contribute to vascular abnormalities in the central nervous system. This, in turn, may result in bleeding or vascular damage, leading to the presence of red blood cells in the CSF."

I take responses from ChatGPT with a grain of salt, but these numbers do seem pretty alarming.

My doctors are taking it pretty seriously. I was being referred to an ENT but they want to send me straight away to either OHSU (in Portland) or Stanford.

I’m not sure I can afford to wait many months to get in to see Dr Hepworth. I at least need a very thorough diagnostic evaluation from relatively competent people.

Curious to hear what you think of these results?

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Not a doctor here, but CSF usually has high glucose and yours is very low, which might indicate it’s not CSF fluid.

Could it be some blood, lymph, infected fluids, or whatever leaking, but not CSF?

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No idea I’m afraid, but good that they’re referring you straight away, I hope that you can get some answers soon! :hugs:

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According to this site (Cerebrospinal Fluid Interpretation (CSF Interpretation) | Geeky Medics), it could be meningitis (bacterial or viral or fungus) but I am surprised you did not have high fever and all the other symptoms of meningitis. But if you have CSF leak, you are at risky of an infection of some kind. let us hope this is not something serious.

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I spoke to an ENT doctor recently via telemedicine. It was Dr Joshua Schindler at OHSU in Portland.

I’ve seen him a few times in the past. He’s very nice, and more knowledgeable about Eagle Syndrome than most doctors. I believe he’s done a couple dozen styloidectomies, but I don’t think he’s terribly familiar with the venous compression type.

He performed my last CT and he didn’t think the styloids were causing any problems or impinging on any vascular structures. He didn’t look at C1 or other possible causes of compression though, so I take his opinion on this with a grain of salt.

However, when I told him of my recent testing indicating a CSF leak, he did express some concern about a possible infection such as meningitis. He said people with a CSF leak in this location can develop a type of low-grade meningitis that doesn’t necessarily present with a fever. It also doesn’t necessarily lead to rapid deterioration and a trip to the emergency room.

So, it’s certainly possible. I have a lot of symptoms that COULD be related to a nervous system infection like meningitis, it’s really hard to know what is causing what symptom.

Anyway, he does have a colleague who has some knowledge of CSF leaks he wanted to refer me to.

Of course, I’d rather go to Stanford to see Dr Carroll or, ultimately, see someone like Dr Hepworth, but if the soonest I’ll be able to get in to see one of them if a few months from now, I may take a trip up to OHSU to get the ball rolling with further testing and evaluation.

I am going to have a telehealth meeting with Dr Ferdinand Hui in Hawaii in a little over a week. I’m going to have to swallow the $750 it’s going to cost, since I think he may be able to quickly direct me to the best people and save me a lot of time and money down the line.

I’ve been speaking with his assistant through email, filling out the required paperwork in preparation for that appointment.

When I informed them that I had evidence of a CSF leak, they put forward the possibility that Dr Hui may want to refer me to Dr Hepworth, since I was told he often refers patients with CSF leaks to Dr Hepworth.

I wonder if he can pull a few strings and get me in earlier?

Has anyone heard of a CSF-venous fistula? A few people in the Facebook group have mentioned them in association with jugular vein compression. I have some suspicions I might have this.

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Though I can’t answer your question about a CSF venous fistula, I can tell you that Dr. Hepworth is currently accepting new patients IF they are referred to him by Dr. Hui or Dr. Fargen. Those two docs are the “golden ticket” to getting an appt w/ Dr. Hepworth w/o the “He’s not taking new patients” song & dance.

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Oh, good to know! I was debating the value of spending $750 for a telehealth appointment with Dr Hui, but if he can save me months by getting me the fast-track to seeing Dr Hepworth it will certainly have been worth it.

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