Post Visit with Dr. Chan

Today I went for a surgical evaluation with Dr. Teresa Chan (ENT) at UT Southwestern in Dallas. I had waited almost five months for the appointment. I had shared my CTs ahead of time with her. She asked me why I was there. I told her I’d been diagnosed with Eagle Syndrome and elongated styloids by Mayo Clinic in 2013. But at the time they discovered it I had already been there 10 days for several issues and was discharged from OP evaluation when the results came in, so they just told me to follow up with doctors closer to home to decide about surgery if it correlated with the symptoms. I checked with two doctors in Austin and they both felt it was risky to do and not a good percentage of success rate (they said about 50%). So I lived with the symptoms from then until now.

I had a recent CT/CTA for other issues and you all helped me create 3D rendering and suggested it looked like not only elongated styloids but also angled at such a position to risk compression with the carotids. Right styloid: ~2.77 cm, angled medially; contacts the internal carotid artery (ICA). Left styloid: ~3.50 cm, elongated; contacts the external carotid artery (ECA). Both styloids show angulation bringing them into contact with carotid vessels.Also a C1-might have had issues with jugular veins. I showed it to my PCP and he agreed with your assessment and said he’d had another Eagle patient who he sent for surgery.

Dr. Chan asked me my symptoms, and I told her some of them (I had sent ahead a more thorough assessment, but unsure if she read it). She explained that some of my other conditions could also explain those symptoms. She palpated my tonsil bed and around my neck and asked if I had pain. I didn’t at the time. I told her it’s more when I turn my neck a certain ways.

She asked what my tests showed. I explained that the reports didn’t not mention the styloids this time like they did at Mayo, but that wasn’t the reason the scans had been ordered.

She pulled up the CT and showed me how she followed the styloid through the various planes or cuts of the scan, and did not see any compression issues. I asked her to look at the 3D views that were created for me because those seemed to show elongation and compression. She couldn’t find them at first, but then she did and she said you all did a great job recreating the 3D renderings! But she said “proximity doesn’t equal compression and elongation doesn’t equal symptoms.” She said she hoped I found the cause of my symptoms but she did not blame them on Eagle Syndrome.

She thought my diagnosis of Sjogren’s caused a lot of my symptoms. She said, she didn’t recommend borrowing trouble to chase a diagnosis of Eagles and have unnecessary surgery. She didn’t order any of the tests I had asked about such as high resolution CT/CTA (0.5 mm slices, skull base to hyoid) or dynamic Doppler or transcranial Doppler with head rotation.

They said to allow an hour for the appointment, but she was with me 10 minutes. On one hand, I’m relieved that I’m not a candidate for surgery, because I’d been really concerned about some of my surgical risk factors that we would have had to sort through and get clearance. But on the other hand, I wonder if I’m as safe as she says I am at not having vascular risk, since she’s an ENT and not a vascular surgeon. She said she only performs styloidectomies on those who clearly need it and she just doesn’t see it in my case.

She was very personable. And despite the short visit, seemed like she had thought through it before I got there. I’m just trying to decide if this gave me the peace of mind I was looking for or if it left me with more questions. I had spent so much time preparing information and questions if we moved from asking if surgery was recommended, to planning what I thought was inevitable, to being wished well and scooted out the door.

She hasn’t loaded her office visit report, so I don’t have that to read yet.

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Hi WW,

One thing I’ve learned is that different Drs approach this in very different ways. ENTs and Neurosurgeons, for example, look at this very differently.

For example one surgeon (a neck surgeon) told me I wasn’t a candidate for the type of surgery he performs, but that I should talk to other Drs. “in the community” to see what they think. I’ve done that and got a completly different assessment from a neurosurgeon.

So seeking another opinion might be prudent.

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It’s good that you felt she listened and had looked at the info, but if you still feel anxious (which would be understandable) then as @RickAZ says you could look at getting another opinion, perhaps from one of the doctors more experienced with VES? (Dr Nakaji, Dr Costantino, Dr Hepworth or Dr Cognetti), they do have quite long waiting times though, which is frustrating as you’ve waited a while already! It’s hard when you gear yourself up for an appointment & then it doesn’t go the way you expect!
Are you going to look into Sjogrens Syndrome as a diagnosis too? Ben’s Friend’s does have an SjS community too, it’s very quiet unlike on here, but you could have a look for info if you wanted…It wouldn’t explain your neck pain while turning your head though!

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I wish Dr. Chan would have been willing to have a tele-visit since she knew she was going to decline offering surgery ahead of time. It was a hardship to get to that appointment (we left at 9am and got home at 4:40pm and were only in the exam room with her for ten minutes). She does offer tele-visits, but not for the initial appointment. Any other potential surgeons will be even harder to travel to due to our circumstances with my husband’s cancer and my Long COVID neuro status. (Flying alone would be out for me and my husband needs his PTO time for his cancer treatment. He took off to help me yesterday to get to Dallas. And driving in that traffic was a challenge for him.) But enough of that! To answer your questions.

I’ve had Sjogren’s Syndrome for at least 35 years of confirmed diagnosis, but possibly even since childhood. The problem is, I also have primary immune deficiency, so the treatments normally for Sjogren’s are out for me. I can’t take DMARDS or biologics. And other side effects have ruled out NSAIDS, even.

Dr. Chan didn’t rule out Eagle Syndrome, she just said she didn’t think it was a surgical case from her point of view as an ENT. I was diagnosed at Mayo Clinic, so she wasn’t going to undiagnose that, I’m guessing. I’ll be curious to read her office report when it comes up on patient portal. I was surprised it wasn’t already there. I do think a vascular work-up would be appropriate at some point, but since I have so many surgical risks (even possible friable tissue), it might just be best to let it rest. It’s hard to unsee those 3-D images of the proximity of the styloids to the carotids, though! (Angle plus length.)

Thank you all for talking it through with me!

Kathy

@WillisWay - I’m very sorry for the brevity of your appointment & for the outcome as well. Unfortunately, what Dr. Chan was looking at were pictures of your neck in a static/neutral head position. It’s true that proximity doesn’t mean compression, however, if that CT scan had been done dynamically, w/ your head turned left & right, looking up & down i.e. positions of daily living, there’s a chance compression would have shown up. I’m very surprised that she was content to say there’s no compression problem simply based on a scan done w/ your head in neutral position.

That said, if you aren’t having symptoms indicative of some sort of vascular compression - stroke like symptoms - headaches, sometimes partial to full vision loss in one eye, dizziness/fainting, numbness & tingling in face &/or limbs on one side of the body, & neck pain are common w/ carotid compression. Pressure inside your head w/ migraines, visual changes & potentially pulsatile tinnitus can point to IJV compression, then she is likely correct, you have nothing to worry about as far as vascular problems go. When you have time, please remind me what your worst symptoms are at the moment.

I’m terribly sorry that you & your husband are both dealing with significant health challenges at the same time. He is a saint for taking the time to drive you to Dallas yesterday. Road trips are exhausting even when we feel good so that must have taken a significant toll on both of you.

If you feel ok sharing the gist of Dr. Chan’s office visit report, we’d be happy to hear about it.

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Here is part of what I sent Dr. Chen ahead of time. It covered symptoms and asked about having dynamic testing done. And then I asked about that again when I was there. She did not answer why not test further. Instead she suggested I look in a different direction for the reason of my symptoms.

Imaging Summary (See enclosed CD)

Approximate Styloid Measurements & Vessel Contact

  • Right styloid: ~2.77 cm, angled medially; contacts the internal carotid artery (ICA).
  • Left styloid: ~3.50 cm, elongated; contacts the external carotid artery (ECA).
  • Both styloids show angulation bringing them into contact with carotid vessels.
  • CTA official report read as “normal”styloids and vascular relationships not mentioned.

Vascular & Anatomical Considerations

  • Dynamic compression: Symptoms worsen with head rotation/extension; neutral-position imaging underestimates compression.
  • Carotids > Jugulars: Symptoms align more with carotid irritation than jugular compression.
  • Jugulars: Touching C1 transverse processes but not compressed by the styloids.
  • Possible nerve involvement: Vagus, glossopharyngeal, and sympathetic chain irritation.

Clinical Significance

  • Contact with ICA/ECA may provoke vascular symptoms, presyncope, headache and behind eye pain, head and ear pressure, dizziness, or neuroinflammatory flares.
  • Left styloid significantly elongated and more symptomatic.
  • Mechanical irritation of pharyngeal tissues explains sharp pain with singing.

Eagle Syndrome Symptom Overview

Cranial & Facial Pain

  • Facial pain (cheek, jaw, eye, temple)
  • Ear pain/pressure, deep inner-ear ache
  • Pain under jaw or angle of jaw
  • TMJ-like pain, tightness
  • Tooth pain
  • Sharp throat pain, especially with singing (feels like swallowing glass)

Neck / Musculoskeletal

  • Neck pain, tightness, limited rotation
  • Pain at skull base
  • Shoulder/trapezius pain
  • Pain radiating into shoulder/clavicle
  • Hyoid discomfort

Neurologic & Autonomic

  • Dizziness, vertigo, off-balance sensation
  • Presyncope
  • Light/sound sensitivity
  • Brain fog and cognitive dysfunction
  • Adrenaline surges / sympathetic overactivation
  • Facial flushing
  • POTS symptoms
  • Symptoms worsened with Valsalva

Vascular / Pressure Symptoms

  • Pressure headaches, behind-the-eyes pressure
  • Head or sinus pressure/fullness
  • Symptoms sensitive to head positioning
  • Lightheadedness

ENT / Eustachian / Functional

  • Eustachian tube dysfunction (fullness, difficulty equalizing)
  • Sensation of congestion
  • Vocal changes (prior thyroidectomy may also contribute)
  • Trouble finding comfortable sleep position due to neck angle

Inflammation-linked Flares

  • Symptoms intensify during inflammatory episodes or MCAS activation

Why I Am Seeking Surgical Evaluation

  • Bilateral contact of styloids with carotid arteries (ICA on right, ECA on left).
  • Dynamic symptoms not captured well on neutral-position CTA or static Doppler.
  • Symptoms are significantly affecting safety (presyncope, dizziness) and daily function.
  • My primary care NP has expressed concern about TIA or stroke-like risk.
  • Medical management and positional strategies have provided only mild temporary relief.

Questions

About Imaging

  1. Since MRI is not possible for me, would ordering a high-resolution CT or CTA skull-base-to-hyoid (0.5 mm slices) help confirm orientation and vascular contact?
  2. Are my 3-D reconstructions sufficient (see patient portal), or should a new scan be labeled specifically: “Evaluate for Eagle Syndrome / stylocarotid syndrome”?
  3. Would dynamic Doppler or transcranial Doppler in rotated head positions help identify functional compression?
  4. Should I have a carotid duplex ultrasound now for baseline flow assessment?
  5. Based on my imaging, is the C1 transverse process contributing to the vascular or mechanical compression? And if so, would C1 shaving or decompression be appropriate to consider during a styloidectomy?

She hasn’t filled out a report yet for my patient portal. I’ll be eager to see how she words it. She really didn’t do a vascular or neurological exam. I’ll pass word along after I get it.

Thank you all again!
Kathy

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You did a wonderful job of succinctly documenting your symptoms, scans & concerns. I’m very sad to know she waved that information off & made a judgment about your situation w/o going over your symptoms & concerns. SOOO FRUSTRATING!

From symptoms you’ve listed, it does seem like you have significant signs of vascular irritation/compression of your carotids, at the very least so I think it’s worthwhile pursuing a second opinion. I know it’s very tough for you to travel, & there aren’t many doctors who do initial consults via telehealth.

Is Dallas the nearest big city to where you live? If so, Dr. Welch who is also in Dallas did an IJV decompression + styloidectomy for one of our members so he would be an option. He’s new to our Doctors List so we don’t know if he would do an initial telehealth consult with you.
•Dr. Babu Welch at UT Southwestern, 5303 Harry Hines Blvd 7th floor, Dallas, has performed surgery for VES (also Dr Lee Pride, interventional radiologist can diagnose ES) https://utswmed.org/doctors/babu-welch/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=gbp&utm_content=website\*

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You’ve laid that out really well! I don’t understand why she feels you’re not a candidate for surgery based on your symptoms, so I can’t help wondering if it’s more to do with your other medical conditions which might complicate recovery, or that she didn’t want to do the surgery if you have potential carotid involvement :woman_shrugging:
I’m sorry for forgetting your situation with your issues & your husband’s cancer treatment, it’s so hard when there are so few doctors prepared to treat ES :hugs:

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Thanks, everyone—I really appreciate the thoughtful input here.

I want to clarify something important about the consult. Dr. Chan didn’t say I’m not a candidate for surgery because of my other health issues. She said I did not need surgery because she did not see carotid compression. That conclusion, however, was based only on static imaging in a neutral position. None of the dynamic or positional studies I asked about were ordered.

To address the question that came up about whether she may have been avoiding surgery due to my risks: that question arises because it’s been a recurring pattern for me. I’ve now seen three ENT surgeons who acknowledge Eagle Syndrome anatomically but have declined to operate. The others said there was no guarantee that surgery would be successful. (The first two were in 2013-2014.) In this case, Dr. Chan did not state that my other conditions factored into her conclusion—she framed it purely as “no carotid compression” based on static imaging. I’m not trying to assign motive; I’m trying to understand whether the conclusion reflects true exclusion of vascular risk, or whether it reflects the very high threshold many surgeons understandably have for taking on complex cases like mine.

While she technically gave me the answer I hoped for (“you don’t need surgery”), it didn’t give me peace of mind—because I don’t feel I received a risk-based assessment. I’m trying to understand whether this reflects the limits of an ENT-focused evaluation rather than a comprehensive vascular one.

Complicating this is the relational piece. My husband heard “no surgery needed” in that ten-minute exam and consult, and with his own complicated health situation, he understandably wants to accept that as the final word. He’s weary of appointments that are a hardship for us and historically have yielded little help or clarity. So I’m holding both things at once: gratitude that surgery wasn’t immediately recommended, and concern that something important may still be unexamined.

I’m actually okay living with most of my current symptoms given my unique risks. What I’m not okay with is missing a vascular risk and addressing it only after a vascular event.

I’m also wondering whether some of my current neurological and autonomic symptoms could be compounded by Eagle Syndrome. I have Long COVID with documented neuroinflammation, endothelial dysfunction, microvascular issues, mitochondrial dysfunction, elevated lactate-to-pyruvate ratio, and other inflammatory markers. I’m having enough neurological symptoms that if there was a tie in to Eagle Syndrome, that MIGHT also convince me to press further regarding evaluation for surgery. I’m in neuro-rehab right now to help with neuroplasticity and soon I’ll be having neuro-OT and neuro-PT.

So I’d really value insight on a few specific questions:

• Have any of you with Eagle Syndrome experienced symptom exacerbation—particularly neurological or autonomic—after post-viral conditions such as Long COVID?
• When static neutral imaging is unrevealing, have you seen dynamic or positional studies meaningfully change risk assessment or management decisions?
• My PCP is fighting insurance approval for an FDG PET scan of the brain. I know this wouldn’t diagnose Eagle Syndrome directly, but is there anything that might show up that could indirectly support concern about vascular or perfusion-related involvement?

I’m not trying to decide for or against surgery right now. I’m trying to decide whether the question has been fully asked.

I really appreciate this group—especially the way it bridges lived experience and medical insight.

Kathy

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That there is no guarantee surgery will be successful is the tagline for every ES surgeon on our Doctors List. Some will say that overall their surgeries have been from ~50% - ~75% successful, & a few even give higher percentages than that these days, but to save themselves in the event of an unsuccessful outcome, they do give the initial disclaimer up front. However, most of those doctors typically don’t decline to operate.

I completely agree with you here. You shouldn’t have to wait to get diagnosed until you have a significant vascular event. As I said previously, I don’t know how Dr. Chan could have looked at your imaging & concluded there was no possibility of your carotids being compressed or substantially irritated by your styloids with head movement, without dynamic imaging to prove it.

Many of our members have noted that their symptoms worsen when they are sick. ES causes inflammation via nerve, soft tissue, & vascular compromise. When there are other causes of inflammation in the body, they can be compounded by the inflammation ES is causing. I’m not a doctor, but it’s my opinion that your long COVID symptoms & ES symptoms are potentially playing off each other which is causing all symptoms to be exacerbated to a greater degree than if ES & long COVID weren’t coexisting in your body.

Yes, knowing for certain if vascular compression exists definitely changes risk management decisions. I feel strongly, based on what your static imaging showed, that pursuing a dynamic CT scan w/ contrast would be most helpful to show any vascular compromise the styloids are causing. Knowing definitively whether there is a vascular risk being caused by ES would give you more ground to stand on regarding what decision makes the most sense about whether or not to have surgery.

I don’t think the PET scan will show something helpful about ES symptoms as the causes of ES symptoms most likely will be unreactive to the contrast. PET scans best indicate the rate of sugar uptake in particular body areas from the contrast that’s used. Highlighted areas have higher metabolic activity thus higher sugar uptake. I know cancer has a high metabolic rate which is why PET scans are used for cancer detection.

I hope others will join in this discussion because you’ve posed some very thoughtful questions. Getting other opinions/input would be good.

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I don’t think that I can be helpful in answering your questions, but I have noticed quite a few new member applications have mentioned symptoms either starting or worsening with long covid.., whether that’s the immune system going into overdrive, inflammation causing worsening of existing conditions, who knows…
You mind find some interesting info by @Chrickychricky in this discussion:
Feeling lost, unheard - General - Living with Eagle

I understand you want clarity about your vascular situation before you rule out ES surgery, it is really , really rare for anyone to have a vascular event with carotid artery irritation/ compression, but that’s not enough to reassure you I’d imagine! :hugs:

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More to add to the discussion. I wasn’t looking for a surgical guarantee from any of the three ENTS who do styloidectomies. It was more they were saying it to describe why they wouldn’t do the surgery.

I am curious though, now that I have very involved neurological symptoms post-COVID (along with elevated labs showing neuroinflammation and other issues) if the ES is a compounding factor (either Long COVID is making ES worse, or ES is making Long COVID worse). In other words, as we look for ways to treat the neuro symptoms, addressing the ES might be part of the solution.

Just to clarify why an FDG-PET was ordered: while FDG-PET is commonly associated with cancer detection, it’s also widely used in neurology to evaluate brain metabolism. In my case, it’s being pursued because of persistent neurological and cognitive symptoms in the context of Long COVID, especially since I’m unable to have an MRI. PET can sometimes show regional hypometabolism or metabolic patterns consistent with neuroinflammation or network dysfunction. The goal isn’t to diagnose Eagle Syndrome or to look for malignancy, but to better understand whether there’s a metabolic or inflammatory contributor to my neurological symptoms—or whether something else contributing to the inflammation has been missed. It’s part of a broader neurologic workup rather than a standalone or cancer-focused test.

I am having success with speech & neuro rehab utilizing neuroplasticity with a speech pathologist who specializes in neuro rehab. And we are hoping to add neuro-OT and neuro-PT to the plan soon.

Regarding ES, I do think the next step would be dynamic CT scan w/ contrast. But if I’m not having surgery, perhaps it would be more to fulfill my curiosity than to inform treatment. We’ll see! It definitely would help to put to rest whether there is a vascular component or not. I asked about dynamic CT and also ultrasound/doppler when I had the static/neutral tests and they said they weren’t needed for Eagle Syndrome. I knew they were wrong. It’s difficult to have so much gaslighting going on!

I really appreciate those of you who have weighed in on this. It helps validate that my insights are not off-base.

Kathy

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I appreciate your thought that if the main thing that would lead me to surgery is the concern of a vascular event, that the likelihood of that, even if the styloids are compressing the carotids is low. That probably gives more peace of mind than a doctor saying I don’t need surgery!

I’ve read about temporary compressions (based on position) causing neurological issues, and that would be part of the reason for further evaluation too.

Thanks for mentioning @Chrickychricky’s note. I’ll read that next!

Kathy

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Your insights have hit the bullseye, Kathy. Interesting that PET scans are also used for neurological information in the brain. I hope the results are extremely helpful for you. :folded_hands:

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I wanted to offer a follow-up regarding my recent ENT surgical consult with Dr. Chan for Eagle syndrome, since I had previously mentioned to this group that I was pursuing that evaluation. I finally received her office notes and can discuss how they differed from my in-office experience.

This visit was intended as a surgical viability consult for an already-established Eagle syndrome diagnosis (previously identified by Mayo Clinic and confirmed by other ENTs), specifically to determine whether styloidectomy might be appropriate given my anatomy, symptoms, and risk profile.

What the visit consisted of

  • The appointment was scheduled for 30–60 minutes, but the in-person encounter lasted approximately 10 minutes.
  • The exam was brief and limited (and this was not reflected in the office notes).
  • We did not review my full symptom history together, nor did we review my prepared materials in detail during the visit.
  • The clinician showed a small number of selected CT slices to illustrate her interpretation that a structure others had identified as styloid or calcified ligament might represent a vessel. However, this was not a comprehensive or methodical imaging review, and measurement methodology, angulation, and dynamic considerations were not addressed. The office visit notes give specific measurements and conclusions, which were not shared with me during the encounter. (The office note said she measured them as left: 26mm and right: 22mm. She disputed the 3D rendering measured them at left: 3.5 cm and right: 2.77 cm. but did not establish how her measurements were attained.)
  • I raised questions about dynamic or positional testing (given positional symptoms and angulation), but these were dismissed as unnecessary based on the clinician’s assessment.

One particular difference between observation by other doctors and this one is that Dr. Chan interpreted a structure as vascular rather than ligamentous based on its course. However, the CTA report did not identify any abnormal vessel, and multiple prior specialists—including Mayo Clinic—identified elongated styloid or calcified stylohyoid structures consistent with Eagle syndrome.

CT and CTA together usually allow clear distinction between vascular structures and calcified styloid/ligament based on contrast enhancement. Given the disagreement between prior interpretations, an independent radiology re-review of the scans—specifically measuring styloid length, angulation, and vascular relationships—would have been the most objective way to resolve the question. Without that, the conclusion rests primarily on individual interpretation rather than reconciled imaging evidence.

The final diagnosis used for this office visit was cervicalgia. This was not my presenting primary symptom. Also, there were some inconsistent findings in the notes. Example: she said my voice was strong, yet later attributed dysphonia to xerostomia or previous thyroid surgery. She said it’s “unlikely related to styloids, which are not elongated. This would not be a typical symptom of Eagle’s.” She also summarized, “Styloids are not elongated by my measurements and not causing significant issues. Proximity does not equate to compression; current images suggest styloids are far enough away from critical structures. Surgical intervention not recommended due to lack of significant vascular compression and associated risks.”

Why I’m not using this consult to guide my next steps

  • The visit wasn’t long enough to discuss a complex surgical decision.
  • My history and pre-visit materials were not discussed during the encounter.
  • Several elements documented in the office note (measurements, consent statements, conclusions) were not part of the in-room discussion.
  • Dynamic considerations (positional symptoms, angulation) that were central to my referral question were not addressed.
  • As a result, the documentation and the visit itself do not give me enough confidence that a full surgical viability assessment—tailored to my case—was actually performed.

This is not an accusation—only a transparent account of why this particular consult wasn’t usable for me in making decisions about next steps.

Thanks for all of your help—you assisted me in recognizing how these findings were inconsistent with usual methods and outcomes.

Kathy

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It is frustrating to wait so long for an appointment, and then to feel unheard… it’s good you’re educated enough to recognise what wasn’t assessed.
So, what are your next steps going to be, if any? :hugs:

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Thanks, Jules! I’m not sure what my next steps are. As many people here can relate to, I have multiple health issues going on at once and need to “triage” my own issues to decide which ones are most important. The list of next steps my PCP and I have put together involve ten different actions in different stages of waiting for the details to be arranged. Including an appeal on getting a brain PET scan for my neurological issues. So this might have to go on the back burner again.

Kathy

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I’m glad that your PCP is working with you to prioritise treatments/ testing, that’s something at least…it’s such a difficult situation when you have complicated medical issues, but let us know how you get on with it all :hugs:

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