Update/questions regarding appt with Dr. Hepworth last week

I had my second appointment with Dr. Hepworth last week, but it felt rushed. He spent less than 10 minutes with me, which was disappointing. I know his practice is going through changes, so I assume that’s why. I’m hoping someone here can help clarify some aspects of the appt and/or share general thoughts.

—— Background ——

• I have a left decompression/styloidectomy scheduled for December, but Dr. H is trying to get me in sooner. I’m hesitant due to mixed results and risk of complications.

• I have severe osteoarthritis in my jaw joints and will need total joint replacement surgery in the next few years, which also has high risks.

• I likely have mild CCI and hEDS and want to see specialists for that, but managing these issues along with TMJ and mental health problems feels overwhelming.

—— Appointment summary ——

~ CTA/CTV Findings ~
Vascular-
• Little to no blood flow through the right transverse sinus, most blood flow that is “metabolically managing” my brain health leaves through the left side.

• Left jugular vein is compressed by soft tissue and the lateral anatomy of my C1, constrained between the omohyoid, thyroid gland, and scalene muscles.

• Left vertebral artery is very small; health imaging didn’t mention this but Dr. H wants to get a report about it.

Structural (Cervical) -
• Noted military neck, likely due to jaw joint issues, and misalignment/subluxation of C1 and C2.

• C2 is slightly backed into my spinal cord.
Possible mild CCI based on imaging.

~ Overall ~
• Dr. H believes managing symptoms by working on the left jugular vein has about 80% confidence. If symptoms persist, we might address the right side.

• C1 might need attention to reduce impingement on the left IJV, but he prefers less invasive methods if possible. He also said the jugular vein can move up to an inch in the neck with the surgery (without a C1 shave), so a C1 shave might not be necessary.

—— Specific questions on my mind ——

  1. Why is there little to no blood flow through my right side sinuses, and what are the implications? Is it damaging my brain?

  2. I suspect a CSF leak but that has not been brought up in my appts with Dr. H. Is that normal?

  3. Does Dr. H consider artery compression? Why focus so much on the jugular vein?

  4. My jugular veins are both HUGE in terms of volume, and the size of my neck has gotten noticeably bigger in the last couple of years. Is this the case for anyone else?

  5. What might cause a small vertebral artery on the left side? Is this concerning?

  6. How might CCI and hEDS impact surgery success, and how will my progressively recessing jaw and upcoming joint replacement surgery factor in?

——————

Any insights are appreciated, even if not addressing my specific questions above. Thanks in advance.

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I hope it is okay to write this. I have recommended this group to many on IJV FB group and want to do the opposite now. There are two groups that I think you would benefit from joining on Facebook if you are a FB user:
The Brain and Spine Group for Zebras - there are many people in this groups with complex and multiple diagnoses, many who have CCI and hEDS and some with venous outflow issues
Jugular Venous Outflow Disorders (Cerebral Venous Congestion) - it’s a bit luck of the draw as this group has gotten really big, but there are also many in here with complex issues and definitely a big % with hEDS. If you happen to post and one of the geniuses who have been around for a while sees it you will get some good input, if not, give it a week and post again.

I am a Hep patient and 7 weeks post surgery. Hopefully one of the geniuses in this group will see your post and have more input than I do, but I will share what I can from my experience.

When it comes to the December surgery, take your time. I am somebody that took a lot longer than most before I committed to my surgery. And that was a good thing. That when I had the surgery I was sure that no matter what the outcome risks and all I knew that I was doing the right thing. As in, I would have no regrets if things went wrong. If you have not heard of Dr Fargen, Hui or Pastille (I might have misspelled the last one) then these are names that might help give you the confidence that you need to commit. These are doctors that are experienced at performing catheter angios & venograms and who very well understand these conditions and therefore know what they are looking at. I would actually recommend the first two the most. Even though Dr Hepworth knew that a jugular decompression, possibly both, would benefit me, I still wanted this procedure to be done on me as a final thing before I was ready to commit. The problem is that they also have a lot of people that are waiting to get in. I believe that Dr Hui is a little bit faster to get into than Dr Fargen. You will need a referral for either of them. So if you are interested, then ask Doctor Hepworth to do a referral for you. If you aren’t sure what I’m talking about then let me know and I’ll be happy to explain what this procedure is and how it can add extra information.

I’m going to pause here and just let you know that I use dictation because of problems with my arms and dictation does not always come out great. I’m also not going to go back and correct things apart from the spelling of the doctors names :slight_smile:

Military neck is pretty common unfortunately for those of us that have done a lot of computer work, reach a certain age, et cetera et cetera. But what’s not great about it is that it pushes your C1 forward bringing it closer to the styloid therefore making it more likely that it’s going to compress your jugular vein. That’s what happens with a lot of us and it may be what’s going on with you. Or at least a part of the story. @vdm Is incredible when it comes to reading about learning and using natural ways like physical movements and repositioning and working on posture to fix things like this. He has posted quite a lot on military neck. If you search military neck or VDMI am sure you will come across his good stuff. PSI also have cognitive stuff going on and often cannot find words so I filled the blanks by saying things like “good stuff” :).

When it comes to figuring out what surgery to do which and next step of course that’s something that only you can decide once you have all of the information that you can glean you’ll just need to weigh it up and figure out what to do.

I can tell you that dr Hepworth really is a genius. He is hands down the best surgeon at working with any complex cases when it comes to jugular outflow issues. He sees things that other surgeons don’t see, and he does not follow a 1 size fits all approach to surgery. If a patient needs a C1 shave he will do it. But as you noted and he shared with you his first option is to move the jugular vein away from C1. He does not have a plan where he automatically disconnects anything apart from shaving the styloid down. He is also extremely adept at shaving the styloid as close as possible to the skull base without damaging any of the nerves.

I am an example of how he shines. And how important it is to have a surgeon that has no specific path that he follows but has the extreme talent and skill and ability to be able to open you up see what’s happening and on the spot decide what to do and fix it. What he found in me was a whole bunch of scar tissue that was strangling the top half of my jugular vein. This is not terribly uncommon. He fixed that. It’s also not terribly uncommon to have a nerve that is involved. But he found three nerves that were all jumbled up in and amongst themselves and around the very very top of my jugular vein in the top 1 centimeter of it. He was able to untangle all of them without any actual permanent damage to any of them. That is huge. The worst of it then was my accessory nerve. It was jumbled up in the jugular but it was also wrapped around the styloid and the hyoid. He had to untangle all of that and then move it away so that it would have a new and safe home. Again, no cut happened and he did not damage the nerve. That said my nerve is really really angry right now and it’s gone on vacation. But with help of physical therapy it will be back online again in six to 12 months. If I’m lucky maybe even sooner. But chances are six to 12 months. I wouldn’t want anyone else to have done this surgery because of those reasons. There is one surgeon whose name I hear a lot of on this site who does vascular decompressions, and I know because I know some of the patients that Dr Hepworth then is sometimes having to do a follow up surgery because he doesn’t have quite the same level of experience and skill. So, all of that to say you are in great hands! You are also working with a person who can look at imaging for one minute and boom see exactly what there is to see. 10 minutes feels like nothing. And it is nowhere near enough for us patients. If he gave you 10 minutes and he was able to say ABCD and E to you then it’s because he knows for certain ABCDandE.

Like you I am left side dominant. I have very little blood flow through my right transverse sinus but it is present. Some people have only one working jugular vein and that is sufficient for them. But that one vein needs to be working well. Many many of us have a dominant vein and one that is not working or take you a lot of fluid.

So what is happening with you is that the vein that you do have that that is taking the most of your fluid is actually not working well. That is why there is a very clear need in Doctor Hepworth’s mind to first and foremost correct that problem. You might have all of these other things that are going on, but Dr Hepworth comes from the perspective of what is the thing that is going to make the most impact to this person’s life. And that’s the thing that he’s going to propose to you as the thing that you need to do. After that if there are other remaining things that’s when you would tackle that in his mind. There is a lot going on on your left side. So it seems pretty clear to me as well that if the left side is taking almost all of the fluid trying to exit your brain and it has all of those things that are impacting the flow from it then that’s going to be causing symptoms. Fix that and at least the symptoms that that is causing stand a very good chance of being resolved.

Having no flow through the right side in and of itself would not create brain damage, however, there can be problems if there is significant issues with flow. It is a known and recognized among the specialists in this field thing that those of us with significantly reduced flow have cognitive impacts from it. They talk about your brain sitting in a sewer because all of the blood that has been used is needing to exit through the jugular veins, But if the veins are blocked, or the sinuses are blocked sufficiently, then the fluid cannot exit, and therefore it cannot get back down to the heart and get cleaned out to then return as clean blood into the brain again. In other words If The Dirty blood can’t get out, then clean blood can’t get in, and we’ve got a sewer around our brain. When I heard that one it really made sense to me and it also really made sense then how we might have cognitive impacts when our brain sits in a sewer :slight_smile:

When it comes to C S F leaks, If your fluid is not able to leave your head, then you have this buildup of pressure. That pressure builds and builds and builds and at a certain point, think of it like a hose, it’s going to sprig and leak. It can no longer withhold it. And now we have a CSF leak. So, if you go and fix that leak before you fix the actual master problem which is your outflow, then the only thing that’s going to happen is that you’re going to experience even more of the symptoms that you have today because now you’re going to have an even bigger buildup of pressure. And, guess what will happen at some point, you’ll spring another leak. So Dr Hepworth’s plan is to fix the outflow issue first wait a while to see what happens and then fix a remaining csf leaks. If your leak is in your cranial area, then it’s perfectly possible that it will actually heal itself once the jugular outflow problems are resolved.

Another thing that I love about Dr Hepworth, Fargen and Hui Is that they are all extremely adept at working with people who have hEDS. They are also very used to having patients that have complex multifaceted diagnosis. Including CCI. If your CCI is not extreme, Then it would still probably serve you well to focus where you are right now first. Having said that, I have no idea what the jaw surgery may or may not implicate. I hope that somebody on this forum happens to have done that and would be able to understand, but I’m thinking that you’re probably gonna have to ask your doctors about that. Jaw surgeon and a heworth or a Fargen or Hui.

I feel like I have written you a book and apologize for that. I do want to add that having read now a couple of times what Hepworth wrote about your left jugular vein, I don’t think that you would need to go to Fargen or Hui. I think it’s clear as daylight that his recommendation is right for you. Having said that, people on this forum said the same thing to me and I still went to Doctor Fargen :slight_smile:

I hope that in this book there have been a couple of things that are helpful for you to read. I also hope that somebody with more knowledge can come in and tackle some of the other areas.

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Thank you for the insight!! I hope your appt tomorrow goes well :slight_smile:

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@akc - Thank you for this amazingly insightful post. Your graphic illustration of “sewer brain” certainly hit home for me!

I did a little clean up of the vocabulary where your dictation didn’t come through clearly. Hope you don’t mind.
I laughed at this sentence & corrected “heads to hEDS”: [quote=“akc, post:2, topic:16486”]
Another thing that I love about Dr Hepworth, Fargen and Hui Is that they are all extremely adept at working with people who have heads.
[/quote]

It’s fine to share links to other forums that may be helpful. We sure don’t have all the answers here.

I want to add for @Rlr286 that Dr. Hepworth refers at least some of his patients to Dr. Yakes, a vascular surgeon in Denver, for angio/venograms when he feels they will clarify what’s going on. Dr. Yakes has done more than 1,000 of these procedures & is quite expert at them. He provides an exceedingly thorough report afterward upon request. If Dr. Hepworth didn’t request that you see Dr. Yakes, Hui, or Fargen, then I expect your compression situation is clear enough to him that he’s willing to operate w/o needing the extra information an angio/venogram provides.

I’m sorry, too, that you experienced the chaos in his office last week. I heard about that from another member who got caught in it. I suspect last week & this week are going to be nightmarish there as he closes one chapter & prepares for the next for his office. He will be in HI for the month of July teaching other ENT surgeons there his surgical techniques. When he comes back, hopefully after an adjustment period, his office & new staff will gain some semblance of normalcy. Things should definitely be better by Dec.

A link to a research article was posted yesterday that both of you will find interesting regarding the effect on the brain from lack of proper blood flow but I can’t find it now. I’ll post it here when I see it again.

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First of all thank you so much for the clean up :slight_smile: The heads/hEDS one was hilarious!

Thank you for sharing that Hepworth is going to be in Hawaii. I knew that he was out for most of July but did not realize that it was going to be there for this. I am so happy to hear that he is training other ENT surgeons in his technique. It is so desperately needed. What a great thing. Have you any more details or do you know how many are going to be there learning from him? I imagine it’s got to be a small number for it to be done well but still… I had heard that Dr Hepworth was going to be able to refer locally for catheter angio-venograms, i’m so excited to hear that that’s happening now. Really good to take the load off of Fargen in particular who I know has just become overwhelmed.

Lastly I feel like I know which article you’re talking about, but since I can’t remember very much for very long it will be like reading it for the first time when you find it and post it :rofl:

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@akc - From what I’ve heard, Dr. Hui has set up a state of the art medical/surgical center for the VOO surgeons (in training) to use for their training & surgeries as they become more proficient. I don’t know if other doctors are flying in for the training or if it’s just a local group. Dr. H has already done some training there of 2-3 surgeons. The person who was their “guinea pig” joined our forum but never posted publicly. I’ve not been in touch for awhile since the surgery so am not sure how recovery is going. I think the surgery was a couple of months ago.

I’m having the same memory issues, @akc, & thus the reason I can’t find the article link :crazy_face:. Dr. Hep sent me to Dr. Yakes for an angio/venogram so I can speak first hand to say he’s AMAZING, but I did have to wait all day for my appt. which was a bit discouraging. Dr. Yakes like Dr. Hepworth, gives the time to each patient’s case that’s needed so he gets backed up & later appointments at the hospital get pushed to later in the day. It was great knowing that when it was my turn, he’d give me the time needed to do my procedure accurately.

The article talked about how lack of proper blood flow in the brain affects the white matter in the brain & how that in turn causes depression, anxiety & even suicidal tendencies if the circulation is poor for long enough. I hope someone comments on the article again as I’ll get a notification & can find it that way.

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Go Hui!!! Thanks for sharing @Isaiah_40_31 !
@Rlr286 I just saw on my Facebook group that you posted and have a lot of good feedback there. Commenting here that I saw your jugular ultrasound results. Hepworth may not have had the time to share with you how profound your numbers on the left side are. Anything above 50 is abnormal; you have a number that is over 200! Those are serious flow problems.

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Wow thank you so much for taking the time to put together such a detailed response. This was very very informative and has given me a lot of reassurance. I am curious about what the purpose/benefit of catheter angiogram/venogram is

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thank you isaiah for your insightful response and discussion with akc. super helpful, as always :slight_smile: as someone who has had various diagnosed severe mental illnesses since i was 14, i am super interested in reading that article so maybe i will dig around for it! will let you and @akc know if i find it!

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oh, i also want to note (in case anyone with TMJ issues similar to mine comes across this post in the future) i probably won’t be able to work on correcting my military neck until after i get my jaw surgery. because my joint is deteriorating via the arthritis, my lower jaw is essentially moving backwards and up which is causing my airway to get smaller. the lack of curvature in my neck actually helps to keep my airways more open than they would be with more normal curvature. in addition, it helps reduce the stress/tension in my jaw, though this adds tension in other places, such as scalenes which dr. h noted as one of the structures causing compression. i also read one time that there is a theory that people who have condylar resorption (aka TMJ arthritis or idiopathic condylar resorption) are at higher risk for calcification of stylohyoid ligament because of the added stress/overcompensation it and surrounding structures must take on due to the jaw joints not being able to function in the way that they should. interesting stuff!

i’ve been working with a cranial facial physical therapist who specializes in TMJ but also is knowledgeable about ES. She knows of Dr Hepworth and the surgeon who i’m hoping will be able to do my jaw surgery, Dr. Aaron Liddel, who is also local to Denver. She has worked with patients of both doctors. We take things very slow and conservatively because my migraines are so sensitive

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On the catheter angiogram: There are 3 things that a good interventional radiologist will do in this (Or vascular neurosurgeon in the case of Dr Fargen):

  1. They measure gradients. So you said that there seems to be a problem in your right transverse sinus. In imaging, both my right and left transverse sinuses were showing significant stenosis or compression. They were showing large arachnoids that seemed to be blocking the path to some extent. Sometimes, something that looks large on an image is quite benign in practice. In performing the angiolslash venagram , the doctor determined that it was indeed severe stenosis , and yet in both my right and left transvers sinuses, there was only a gradient of two. In the sinuses in the head, a gradients is not really considered worth doing a surgical approach unless it’s quite larger. I think 5 or something.
  2. In the jugular vein it is different. A while ago they thought that gradients mattered, but they understood that a smaller gradient was much more significant in the jocular vein than it was in the sinuses in the head. PS sinus in the head means a vein. They now understand that you can have a really small gradient, even no gradient in a jugular vein and still have significant problems from stenosis that is there. The testing that they do for the jugular vein is therefore a little bit different.
    2a.First, they look at the Jugular vein and at gradients in a neutral position, with you just lying down. Then they will look at you when you’re turning to the right, turning to the left, and finally in flexion to try to mimic looking down. They recognize that because you are lying down through this it is still not duplicating your natural upright position, but it is the best that they can do today.
    2b. Finally and very importantly, they will push fluid very hard just above the jugular bulb and see if it gives a reaction to you. If You feel it and it is uncomfortable or it hurts or it in any way mimics any of your symptoms, then this is a really good and strong indication that the stenosis in that jugular vein is actually causing real symptoms on a day to day basis. This is kind of like the gold in this testing in my non dr opinion.

Again, in a case like yours with the amount of compression and stenosis that can be clearly seen on imaging, and the fact that your left jugular vein is the only one that is making a big difference, and that crazy crazy results from the left jugular ultrasound, this would be only for your personal peace of mind. You will feel something when someone fluid is pushed. The only chance that you won’t is if you have been over sedated.

PS the actual procedure is performed by inserting a catheter into your femoral vein kind of just at the very top inside of your leg and then it gets wired up.
3. They measure pressures from the top of your head all the way down to your heart. Or at least that is what Dr Fargen does (I clearly went to him:)). So this shows also if you have Central Venus pressure that is too high to begin with, and it shows the pressure at the top of your head, so a real view of your intracranial pressure. Finally, they will typically do an LP Measuring pressure in the standard way. Because Doctors Fargen, hui, and no doubt the one in Denver Work with so many patients that have eds, they use a smaller needle that is much more safe and much less likely to cause an actual CSF leak as the larger needles can sometimes do.

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Ok now I have questions for you… As my migraines increased in frequency, I suddenly developed more and more TMJ like symptoms, With the muscles from the very base of my jaw up to the masseter tightening up and sometimes even locking. When my world turned upside down and it became continuous migraine without anything helping, my TMJ also was a continuous source of pain. Worked with an osteopath (DO) for a while And he was very very into phrenectomies. He convinced me to get one done as I did have tethering there and along with that I had to work with a Specific physical therapist as well. That myofascial stuff. I had to work with her for some time before the phrenectomy, and then after as well. I could tolerate the pre work, but I could not tolerate the post work and ended up having to stop. It created for me big muscular reactions. Exact opposite of what was intended. And those large muscular reactions lead to heightened migraine states.

I have nothing at all like what you described. I cannot imagine the extra pain that you must be in especially to focus on going through what you will go through with that surgery. But I am really really curious about who your cranial facial physical therapist is. Is on or he understands how to work with really sensitive people like you and I, I would love to try and work with them. The only thing for me is that I can no longer afford to work with anyone that does not accept health insurance.
I worked for a while with a really amazing person who really understood hyperacusis and pain with sound. He said that it is a common thing for people who have had sudden hearing loss (which I did) and also have tinnitus and intractable migraine (bing bing bing) for them to have continuous hyperacusis or as he called it diminished sound tolerance in the affected ear. He said that this group of people commonly have TMJ problems and need to work with a specialist. He did give me a few names but none of them accepted insurance and so I could not move forward with any. I am curious if Doctor Liddel accepts insurance? Or if there was a dr or dentist that you worked with kind of one step before him that really understood TMJ problems and was able to help you a little bit who accepted insurance? Thanks for letting me know :slight_smile:

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Wow, @akc thank you so much for taking the time to help out like that while you’re recovering yourself, & for all the good info!
I think the article @Isaiah_40_31 was referring to was posted by @Chrickychricky :hugs: Cerebral Venous-Associated Brain Damage May Lead to Anxiety and Depression - General / Research Papers - Living with Eagle
I hope that all the info you’ve been given is good food for thought @Rlr286 , & that you feel comfortable with any decisions you make about treatment/ surgery…

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Thank you, @Jules, for posting the link! I spent a long time searching posts for it yesterday & even thought it was @Chrickychricky who posted it, but it absolutely was not in my previous message links. Will try to figure out why today.

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Thank you for clarifying in such detail! One thing that came to mind as I was reading your response is yesterday I was realizing if I use my fingers to put pressure on areas where my left IJV is (roughly), i immediately feel pressure building in my head. So maybe that’s a good sign??

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@Rlr286 - You’re basically doing a self-test by putting extra pressure on your IJVs. The response you notice is telling of what’s going on even w/o that extra pressure.

I need to add to the info I gave about Dr. Yakes. He does not do his angio/venograms w/ the patient awake. I asked about that specifically because I’d read on this forum that doing them w/ the patient awake provides more accurate results. He said he didn’t believe that. He is definitely a bit older & more old school in his practice, but I can’t say enough good about him & his skill doing those procedures. I did end up w/ visual migraines for 3-4 days afterward which was something new for me, but I guess that’s how my body responded to the contrast or the invasion into my veins & arteries or both.

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I’m sorry to hear about your experience with the tongue tie release. Earlier this year, I looked into getting this done (the only place in Denver I found was insanely expensive so I decided to 86 the idea), but I did not know there was a risk of it making things worse. Have your symptoms related to the phrenectomy resolved at all? I realize it might be hard to answer that question since symptoms from different causes tend to mix together.

I go to Peak Physical Therapy (link here) and primarily work with Cara Pineau but have also seen Jessica Brouwer a couple times. Both of them are great. I actually left a Google review yesterday (link here, if you’re curious). Both Cara and Jess have craniofacial certifications. I found them via one of the many insanely helpful resources from the Idiopathic Condylar Resorption facebook group that is a list of CCTT and CFC physical therapists. CTT means they have a certificate in Craniofacial & Cervical Therapeutics, and CFC is Cranio-mandibular Head, Neck, and Facial Pain. The person listed on the document is actually the clinic owner I believe, so she doesn’t see patients, but Cara and Jess are working towards the full certification(s) I believe. Also, the clinic takes insurance!

As for Dr. Liddell - he does take certain insurance. Currently I have United Healthcare and he does not take that, but I am in the process of changing jobs and it looks like I will have Cigna which I believe he does take. Here’s the link to his bio page on his practice’s website. I booked my consult with him in March and he didn’t have any appts for TMJ patients until November, just fyi.

I don’t have any recommendations for non-surgeon doctors that specialize in TMJ here in CO. I had a negative experience with the most “popular” TMJ specialist (who is a dentist and doctor) in Denver metro area. He also does not take insurance and treatment (typically orthodic splint, and potentially botox) costs thousands and has very varied results. I would not recommend him.

I just started going to a new dentist though who is very familiar with jaw issues. She actually had jaw surgery with Dr. Liddell in 2017ish. I had no idea until my first appointment with her a few weeks ago! What are the chances. Her name is Dr. Williams and she is the owner of Williams Family Dentistry. She and the staff are lovely to work with. I know she does TMJ botox but I’m not sure if she offers other TMJ treatment. I would think not but she may have recommendations for who to go to. But most TMJ specialists will not take insurance unfortunately :confused:

How did your appt with Dr H go?

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Ah, interesting. Did you find your experience with him helpful for your overall treatment?

So there are a couple of things that being asleep would impact. This of course just based on my reading, which in this area is not tiny. But also, I could be totally wrong :slight_smile: on the one hand if you’re looking to see what the gradients are in the Venus sinus then being asleep is perfectly fine. There’s no provocative testing being done there and it’s 100 percent based on gradients as to whether or not a stent would be helpful or recommended.

But if you are doing it in order to judge IJVS and also to get accurate LP readings or intracranial pressure ones, then there is definitely a disadvantage.
Dr Hepworth does not agree with this which is no doubt why he is happy to send patients to Dr Yakes, but everything that I am reading that is new and researched seems to be same; that an LP reading on a patient that is asleep is not accurate and is typically reading out a few or several points (With inconsistencies so you can’t just subtract or add X to it ) below an LP reading of a patient who is awake. Sedated to the point that you are not feeling pain but still awake counts as being awake.

Then of course the other issue is that you can’t do the provocative test. When all they cared about was the gradient, this would not matter. But due to advances in this area, we now know that (in cases where there is low/no gradient), the gradient is much less important than the reaction to the provocative liquid being pushed.

And still, if Dr Hepworth is sending patients there, there is a reason. I am quite curious now and wish that I could just invite him out for a coffee after work and just have a chat with him :slight_smile: how cool would that be! To like have no pressure no limit of 15 minutes or whatever, and be able to just shoot the breeze and talk about stuff that you’re curious about or that you don’t quite get or where he, like in this example, seems to be doing something different.

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Oh wow. Thank you so very much for this fantastic and extremely helpful information!

As far as procedures go, mine was really affordable. Probably about $500. That was at a time when I was still comfortable spending the occasional 500 out of network though. I think possibly the biggest problem was that on top of not being able to do the at home myofacial exercises without triggering really really big migraines, my osteo, who is fairly specialized in and a huge advocate of tongue tie releases, did not do any of the interaural work that really apparently has to be done afterwards. This was during COVID but at the time where they were able to have their office open again. I discussed with him if I should move forward with the release and he was gung ho about it, so I assumed all would be well. My myofacial therapist was remote and we did everything via video and it took me a while to realize that she was expecting that he should have been doing some work on the inside releasing muscles as he had when she had hers done. I suspect it wouldn’t have changed anything though. My muscles are just hypersensitive. And no I’m may have misrepresented, things did not get worse after, or at least not after that :slight_smile: it just maybe took me longer than a normal person to recover from it (I could not speak at all for close to two weeks and then had a lisp for a couple of months, while most people are completely normal the next day as if nothing happened.

How much time do you get with your actual physical therapist at peak physical? One of the things that I love about my PT is that I have 45 minutes exclusively with him. There is no handoff to an exercise person, no second person that he starts treating 15 minutes before the end while I am expected to do exercises that he may supervise, and we’re also not in a room with a whole bunch of other people being treated.

I will definitely both looked at the list that you linked and try and get an appointment with Cara to see what she is like. There would be no harm in supplementing or alternating, especially if I can find somebody that can do that really gentle face work. And who knows, my neck might even tolerate her :). Thank you so much for sharing not just the link but also what the CCTT And CFC reported stands for. I would not have even thought to look for that type of list.

And of course our health insurance is United Healthcare. Does not seem likely to be changing anytime soon :slight_smile: but thank you for the recommendation of your dentist. I had a quick look on the map and she’s a bit too far for us, so I’ll start with the PT and see what that might give. And yes, I wonder why it is that TMJ specialists don’t take insurance?

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