1 mo post op-Osborne

[vcp02]

I am 1 most post on with Dr. Osborne….

Improvements

-Resting heart rate went from 110bpm to ~85bpm with a low of 78bpm! Heart palpitations have resolved. No longer feel immense pounding- ice packs did help

-Intraocular pressure went from 35mmHg to 25mmHG… yay to no Glaucoma!

-Getting some sensation back into my ears- laying on rubber is the worst feeling! Also putting earrings on a dead lobe feels awfully gross.

-Improvement with gastroparesis

-Unilateral dry eye symptom resolved.

-No migraine occurrences.

-Energy levels through the roof

-No more brain fog

-Nerve pain in upper and lower jaw resolved (((Worst most painful symptom-“trigeminal neuralgia”)))

-Temperature regulation – Lived with heaters and sweaters and now I’m HOT!

Residual Symptoms

-Tinnitus… Think its only my right ear… cannot tell.

-Jaw tension and clicking- primary symptom. I was really hoping for quick resolution. Currently undergoing RLF treatment because of all the damage my bite obtained after various rounds of prescribed mouth guards and Botox. The damage has left me so debilitated it’s been a lot to overcome mentally, also induced arthritis in the right joint due to the lateral shifting. (At its worse speaking was difficult and my anterior malocclusion was so severe I was embarrassed to show my smile)

-Mild temporal scalp tenderness… similar to what a neuralgia would feel like.

-Recent bad days with shoulder pain. (Scapular Thoracic Bursectomy was preformed prior to Eagles sx and helped me tremendously but still feel a subacromial bursitis needs to be addressed…. This common finding with eagles?)

Treatment/ Proactive precautions?

-My last visit with Osborne was 2 days post op left side. (flew home) He stated there was nothing to do, and didn’t advise on the need for B vitamins regarding nerve recovery. However, after experiencing FBS ( I thought to myself, my body must truly hate me huh!) I started Nervive- Nerve relief- Has the B vitamin complex and I feel its helped.

-Scarring- My scar is quite elevated under my ear, this normal? Read its best to massage it, I started this today as the steristrips were just now removed. Only recommendation from Dr. Osborne there was to proceed with Biocorneum-Advance scar treatment with Silishield. Still some recent oozing which he felt was saliva (how insane is this procedure…) “normal, not infected”

-Shoulder pain- Did a round of shockwave therapy and that really helped. Planning on getting back to Pilates and found many others are advised on physical therapy?

-TMJ- taking a muscle relaxer as needed helps relief the tension and much more effective then it was prior to sx.

-Thoughts on massages?- Should I consider rolfer massage?

-LAST Question: My chiropractor highly advised against a styloidectomies, he pushed for prolotherapy. He felt my body grew those styloids for stability. Obviously, we elected to process surgery and I know this is what has resulted in my recovery. However, it has me thinking, Does this mean that every Eagles case is correlated to CCI/ hypermobility? I’m concerned it’s still an underlying issue I shouldn’t ignore?

THANK YOU ALL TRULY FOR SUCH CONTINUED SUPPORT.

[Jules]

Thank you for your update, and I’m so glad that you’ve seen that many improvements after surgery! So many areas/ nerves were obviously being affected and hopefully that reassures you that you’ve made the right decision with surgery…

I hope that the shoulder pain improves; shoulder pain due to the accessory nerve is common with ES, but not heard of anyone with bursitis . If your incision is still oozing I’d be wary of massaging it yet personally, maybe others have more experience or info about that.

I’d not heard of rolfer massage before! Again, I would leave that for maybe a couple of months or it could interrupt healing, but again that’s just my personal opinion, I didn’t have any advice post surgery about that…

Not every ES case is due to instability, we are seeing more members with both but it’s still the minority. So for most of us the surgery is very successful and all that’s needed for resolving symptoms…Prolotherapy has helped a few members, but not many, it’s certainly not an alternative to surgery, in my opinion.

I hope that you continue seeing improvements, and can find a treatment which helps your jaw pain

[wade]

I’m not really convinced about the styloid calcification and CCI connection. I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is a ton of research that provides this correlation. I think it’s more of a hunch from practitioners. I don’t think there is ton of research into Eagle syndrome in general, so I struggle to believe someone definitely say it’s caused by CCI. I’ve read posts on this forum from parents whose small children had surgery to remove calcification. Again, I could be wrong, but it seems unlikely to me that would be caused by CCI. The hypothesis of the connection seems logical, but again, for a poorly researched condition, I don’t think there is much evidence to back it. I’ve also seen videos from Dr. Hauser who did prolotherapy on patients that ultimately needed the surgery. Prolotherapy is not cheap, and usually not covered by insurance. I believe most of these practitioners have good intentions, but I feel like a lot of these statements they make can do more harm than good.

[vcp02]

I appreciate that feedback, helps put my mind at ease.

Thank you Wendy! My husband said to give myself time but I wanted someone else to say it

[wade]

This is what makes all of this such a challenge. No one can definitely provide us with the answers we want to hear. We have to just use our best judgement and have faith. Based on your descriptions, it seems like you made the right decision.

[Isaiah_40_31]

Symptoms will come and go as you heal - even some that you didn’t have before surgery because nerves are annoying that way! Regarding the incision - DO NOT WORRY about how it looks right now. I can guarantee that it will flatten out & disappear into your neck crease.

Images of my left incision at 3 weeks post op & once it was healed. All I used was Mederma w/ sunscreen. Night & day difference! Here you go:

[vcp02]

Incredible what your body can do huh! Thank you so much for sharing theses photos! Top is exactly what I am seeing with myself now, what a beautiful recovery.

[TML]

Although I too don’t believe that ES is caused by CCI, I am more likely to believe it CAN be due to jaw/anterior neck muscle instability or malfunction. Dr. Hauser actually talks about this and it’s much more believable in my opinion than CCI. Attached below is an image from his website.

Essentially, the muscles connecting to the hyoid in the front can become stressed due to forward head posture or other structural anomalies, causing tension on the jaw and hyoid bone. Since the hyoid and styloids are connected via the stylohyoid ligament, I do see a world in which jaw/hyoid instability and tension in jaw/hyoid related muscles could cause stress on the stylohyoid ligament leading to calcification in the bodies attempt to stabilize the area. I think for some people ES is caused by these muscular malfunctions/imbalances, while ES causes these muscular malfunctions/imbalances in others. And eventually there’s a positive feedback loop where they make each other worse. For me specifically, I’ve had spasms in my suprahyoids for years (similar to charlie horses in the calves) and never thought much of them. Now with my CT imaging, it’s clear that my styloids are long, my hyoid is jamming into my carotids, and my SCMs (in addition to styloids) are compressing my IJVs. All of these are interconnected in the world of forward head. But hard to say which came first, the ES or the muscular compensation. I suspect my IJV compression at C1 by my styloids led to subconscious forward head to open the space, but eventually SCM hypertrophy due to forward head led to more problems, and the tension caused by forward head on my stylohyoid ligament caused even more elongation of the styloids. Does this feedback loop make sense?

But yeah, I’m definitely not convinced CCI causes any calcification of the stylohyoid ligament /styloid process. I just don’t see the logical connection there.

[vcp02]

THANK YOU!!!

So, I actually underwent maxillofacial jaw surgery to correct an underbite at age 22. My bite didn’t remain stable and shortly after my mal-occlusion was back. I went a decade thinking things were normal before the immense “TMJ” pain stated to occur. I underwent 2.5 years of botched botox and prescribed mouth guards that further damages my bite and lead to more advanced TMJ issues.

Prior to my styloidectomy we found Dr. Hodge King. She is a craniosacral orthodontist who I thought was “mad”. She shared with me the # of children she had saved from jaw surgery and how cranial deformities were the cause of this instability. She has initiated ALF treatment and I have seen a drastic improvement in my bite. Treatment is slow, another 3 years before its complete. When we found the eagles and I explained the styloid removal, she smiled and said, we need to stabilize your jaw. She knew it was related in a way I’m trying to understand.

Dr. Middleton did fine that I have “military neck” and advised on wearing small weights to help correct this. I am scared to initiate this too soon post recovery but feel its still an underlying issue I should address. Appreciate your incite on curve correction greatly! ???

[TML]

Here’s my two cents on neck curves in the context of ES. And why I think prolotherapy is often a flop (it seems based on this forum, anyway) in people with ES. I’m not an expert on the human body, this is just my theory based on what I think is logical.

From what I can tell, besides simply a difference in curvature, a healthy lordotic neck curve and military neck (straightened neck curve) are different in that the most forward positioned vertebrae differs. See images below. In healthy lordotic curve, vertebrae closer to the middle of the cervical spine are most forward. This means most tension would be on the middle vertebrae in a healthy neck. Vertebrae are attached to eachother via ligaments. In the bow of a healthy neck that is holding the weight of the head, the most forward middle vertebrae would exert a forward force on above and below vertebrae. This means, along the chain, that C1 is being pulled slightly forward via some ligament tension. People with ES often have tight quarters between styloid and C1. Thus, I think a healthy lordotic curve can prove problematic because IJVs are at great risk of being compressed.

In contrast, the furthest forward vertebrae in military neck is C1, and thus there are no vertebrae below exerting a forward pull on C1. And this is the very reason why I think SO many ES people present with military neck - i think they have subconsciously been compensating with IJV compression by straightening their neck curve to reduce any potential forward pull of C1 by lower vertebrae in an already cramped styloid-C1 space. And THIS is why I believe prolotherapy is often a flop in ES patients: prolotherapy is used to tighten neck ligaments, but ES patients already have the best compensatory ligament arrangement possible (military neck) for living with ES. So prolotherapy can’t make it any better than it already is. Only way to move forward is get styloidectomy and give space for IJV and neck curve slowly go back to healthy lordotic curve now that there’s space. Additionally, curve correction (efforts to make lordotic curve) without styloidectomy could make ijv symptoms worse.

The fact that your migraines are gone tells me that your suboccipitals are already loosening up, which tells me you’re probably starting to center your head more properly (migraines are thought to be caused by tight suboccipital muscles, and these muscles become tight due to forward head posture).

In sum, I think you are slowly healing and your neck curve will become healthy with some conscious effort and PT exercises. I hope my theory and explanation makes sense!

[Jules]

Interesting ideas @TML ! It does all possibly seem to be chicken & egg scenarios as well, what causes what, what compensates for what…

[vcp02]

100x MORE info than any other “Spine specialist” has given me. I will be sharing this insight with EVERYONE.

Thank you!!!

[wade]

@TML you make a very good point. I agree with you. CCI could be one of the causes of ES. It’s just annoying that some practitioners describe CCI as THE cause of ES. In truth, there are probably a dozen things that can lead to ES.

[Deanm]

When I met with Osborne about three weeks ago, he talked about a girl that he operated on that came in with like 10 symptoms and about six of them resolved, but she still had a few and he said this could happen. Imagine who was referring to you of course he did not use any names .. he brought up this case because I have about 10 different symptoms. If I could just get rid of the head pressure Migraine brain fog I would be extremely happy. My symptoms are very posses and much worse than sitting or laying down or turning my neck in any direction.

Dr. Osborne did not really seem too concerned about going over my scans because he said he doesn’t really look at them. He just listened to symptoms. Did he look over your scans with you? I wonder it to myself what your scans look like. The only reason I’m getting more opinions from other doctors is because he does not do a C1 shave and I want to know if that might help my cause.

[Deanm]

Also have military neck and stem cells actually made me worse

[vcp02]

I had about a million symptoms and am happy to say about 90% of them are already gone. We only focused on one symptom with our conversations- nerve pain on right side. It wasn’t till after removal that I realized everything else I was living with unknowingly.

He must of been Dr. # 45 in 2.5 yrs of non-stop visits. I sent him 5 gigs of scans. And your right, we didn’t review them one by one. He spoke to me, stated the findings were clear, and that alone was enough for me. I had made the decision I would end my life if this man couldnt help me. I took the chance with him. He never promised me it would fix anything but he gave me the validity I asked for.

I am 1 mo post op. It will take 6 mo post op to truly assess my symptom resolution.

[Deanm]

I am on the same path as you

Happy for you!

My only caveat is my right side, transfer sinus and Internal jugular rain are both small caliber from birth and the left side is really big so likely my right side compression doesn’t mean much anyway because I have such a patent and huge left side.. I have something called an arachnid granulation in my left trans sinus, which drains into the left jugular so that might be causing my blockage, not allowing my dominant side to drain properly

I’m afraid that if I work on the right jugular, it still may not solve my problems because my dominant side is the left anyway and I might just need to fix the left transverse sinus So that I can get my dominant side to open back up again And drain properly If I can do that, my right jug of compression might not be so significant because my right side is tiny anyway And probably not doing much of the heavy lifting

At this point the only way to tell us with a catheter gram, so that’s probably my next step

Either way I’m prepared to use Osborne. If I have to I really did like him a lot.

Are you local in LA

How was the follow ups and the post surgery process and pain level ?

[Deanm]

What other symptoms did you have ?
I am struggling with headache , head pressure , brain fog, fatigue, neck pain , eye vision problems , etc

[vcp02]

There’s so many unknowns its frustrating. Unlike other awful conditions at least there a certain treatment plan, and with eagles your told your fine for so long and when you finally have an answer there is ZERO guarantee.

Dr. Middleton was the doctor who found the Eagles. Here is a video of all my finding and symptoms. I had a lot of adverse blood supply that was atypical, and it was the way my body had learned to compensate. Incredible what the body can do. At this visit he is pushing hard for prolotherapy, thankfully this forum lead me the right path.

Surgery is not fun, the day of my surgery all my symptoms flared, within the next week to 2 those resolved and random ones came about. My biggest issues was nerve pain on my right side and “TMJ” so that muscle tightness flared. 5 days later we did the 2nd side and then i realized all the dizziness, brain fog, and migraines was due to that side. That’s exactly how I understood my symptoms. THE SHORTER STYLOID was causing all of my main issues. So i appreciated someone hearing me vs looking at my scans. Anatomically I am so slender. What fits in a 250 pound man wont work well on me. Perhaps some of your atypical findings within your vascular system are a result from your bodies compensatory actions with ultimately a FB in your neck.

Atypical Neuralgia

[Deanm]

How long was the short styloid

Did you have a visible compression on both jugulars on the axial ct scans ?