Which first? Styloidectomy or lower jaw surgery?

Hi all,

(If you’d like more in depth info on my situation, you can click my profile and see previous posts).

I am currently in braces and prepping for jaw surgery. If nothing changes, I am probably 8-10 months out from getting mandibular advancement via bilateral sagittal split osteotomy.

Torn on if I need to try and deal with styloid first

Pros of jaw surgery first

  • I will need the jaw surgery almost for certain regardless of if a styloidectomy helps me. The data shows I’m on course for severe sleep apnea and broken teeth and my experience is already bearing that out.
  • Jaw surgery will have to happen with braces on. Fitting in a styloidectomy and recovery before jaw surgery wouod lengthen overall braces treatment.
  • If jaw surgery is just THAT life changing, maybe I could totally forgo a styloidectomy and the associated costs and risks.
  • That, or, I can choose some later time to do styloidectomy so its not all bunched together.
  • If jaw surgery happened to “hit” the area of Eagle and cause more calcification and mess, that could be removed later
  • Dr. Osborne advised I try “everything else” prior to styloidectomy

Pros of Styloidectomy First

  • If styloidectomy happens to change my bite, I’d still be mid-braces and more easily able to fix it
  • May cause less styloidectomy risk - Dr. Osborne indicated that any surgeries in that area can complicate the “field” of surgery. So doing the styloidectomy before any jaw surgery may reduce that risk.
  • If I have vascular compression…well, it would certainly be nice to get thar solved ASAP.

Thoughts?

I’m sure I have more but I’m just sending this now while its on my mind.

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My thoughts were that some members have found their bite improved after ES surgery, so maybe that should be tried first, BUT having read your explanation above about how you believe the jaw surgery will be necessary anyway, and also if Dr Osborne is encouraging you to hold off on the styloidectomy then maybe you should take his advice?

@vcp02 posted some interesting info about her appointment and treatment with an integrative dentist, and how the bite and jaw can affect the neck, so maybe with the treatment you’re having will help with your ES symptoms? Here’s a link:

Root cause - General - Living with Eagle

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@Kmarty14

This is a complicated response for me, but having lived both sides of this, I’ll share my honest feedback. In short, the long-term complications I have faced following jaw surgery have left me regretting my decision to move forward with it.

I had braces for four years during middle school. Soon after they were removed, my bite became misaligned. I then underwent braces a second time for another four years during high school, where I was told I had an underbite that would require maxillofacial surgery to correct.

The surgery was performed when I was approximately 22 years old. The recovery was one of the worst experiences I have ever endured. Keep in mind, I had a relatively “minor” case that did not require my jaw to be wired shut. It took me over three months just to control the immense swelling, and I lost more than 15 pounds. I weighed approximately 90 pounds at the time.

My bite remained stable for less than a year, despite having both upper and lower permanent retainers.

Over the next eight years, I focused on school. Despite the relapse in my malocclusion, I was not in pain and would never have reconsidered retreatment of any sort. I cannot truly describe the level of PTSD I experienced following the surgery.

During the first 8–10 years post-surgery, despite the relapse, things remained relatively stable, and I had no “TMJ” pain.

Fast forward to age 32, when I started developing “TMJ” issues. I experienced progressively worsening jaw pain accompanied by uncontrollable clenching. I was placed in a mouthguard, which controlled my symptoms for approximately one year. During the second year, however, my symptoms flared to an entirely new level. I was placed in various mouthguards and underwent rounds of Botox for months. Nothing alleviated the pain, and every treatment further displaced my bite. I was left feeling mutilated and had difficulty speaking and eating.

As it turns out, the TMJ diagnosis was actually a misdiagnosis for Eagle syndrome. The treatment intended for a TMJ disorder—when TMJ was not the underlying issue—ultimately created additional TMJ problems.

I also consulted with Dr. O and shared my jaw surgery journey with him, but he was unaware of the potential correlation. I recently sent him some information and insight regarding this connection; please see the thread Jules attached.

Dr. O also performed my styloidectomy approximately one year ago. The alleviation of my jaw pain was immediate. There was no longer impingement on my trigeminal nerve, and once my chronically tight neck muscles began to relax, I was no longer clenching.

My recovery following the styloidectomy was a walk in the park compared to my jaw surgery. I was back at work in less than a week, and essentially all of my jaw-related symptoms resolved.

My bite, however, was still left severely misaligned. The thought of undergoing braces for a third time gave me debilitating anxiety. We ultimately elected to seek care from an integrative dentist/orthodontist. I’ll admit that I was extremely apprehensive about entering that world, but after traditional medicine failed me more than once, I knew I needed to explore a different approach.

She focuses on cranial abnormalities and the proper alignment of the facial bones, head, and tongue. She was able to quickly align my jaw using “splint therapy”—not mouthguards. She explained to me that jaw misalignment can lead to compensatory abnormalities in the neck and that my surgery had essentially “cut and pasted” my jaws in a way that was not anatomically correct for my overall structure.

She also identified and addressed an underlying tongue tie. She explained that allowing the tongue to rest properly may help support and expand the upper jaw without the need for invasive expanders. One year into treatment, my bite is better than it ever was following surgery. My upper jaw has expanded, allowing my teeth to align more naturally, and my airway has reportedly opened fourfold.

She has helped me understand that Western medicine often focuses solely on tooth alignment rather than the underlying jaw and cranial structure. She received her training in Germany, where the focus was more heavily placed on addressing underlying structural issues, as opposed to the approach in the U.S., which she believes often focuses primarily on cosmetic dental alignment.

Given her holistic approach, she is strongly against surgery. She has concerns about the placement of my titanium screws and hardware and worries about potential future complications associated with them.

***Her theory is that my jaw misalignment, resulting from my tongue tie, caused my neck to compensate, ultimately contributing to the ossification of my stylohyoid ligaments. Honestly, I don’t completely disagree. I have seen my cervical spine regain its natural curve during treatment. However, Dr. O has also diagnosed two members of my family with Eagle syndrome—my father and my sister. My father has “TMJ” issues, whereas my sister has absolutely zero jaw symptoms or issues.

Something else worth adding is that my brother-in-law is a dentist. His son also suffers from a malocclusion and requires the same surgery. He has expressed extreme concern, stating that this surgery has a significant risk of complications and relapse. His primary concern is continued jaw growth, and he has argued that if he allows his son to proceed with surgery, he would prefer to wait until he is closer to age 30.

I am currently suffering from chronic sinusitis. I have undergone two balloon sinuplasties and was recently diagnosed with a severe maxillary infection that requires surgical treatment. As it turns out, some of the titanium screws have penetrated my maxillary sinus and may very possibly be the source of these chronic infections.

My ENT is now concerned that removal of the screws may be necessary. Time will tell, but that is the last thing I want to endure.

Roughly 15 years later, it seems that I am still suffering from the consequences of this surgery. I contacted my jaw surgeon regarding my concerns about screw penetration into the sinus, and his response was essentially, “Oh, that is very common.”

He seemed completely unaware of the potential secondary consequences. Why? Because it is not his specialty—and, as you know, providers often do not communicate with one another.

Given what I know now, I would have never proceeded with such an aggressive surgery. I also had no idea cranial dental treatment existed. Unfortunately, if underlying structural issues are not identified and addressed during childhood, surgery may sometimes become difficult to avoid.

Dr. O is incredibly conservative, and that is one of the things I love most about him. However, my styloidectomy was far less invasive than my maxillofacial surgery.

I do not know your individual situation, the severity of your bite classification, your age, etc. Those are all critical factors that need to be assessed. I also do not see how vascular decompression can be treated with out proper styloid removal.

I would consider a consultation with Dr. King at complementary dentistry or another integrative specialist. Most importantly, make sure to do your due diligence before making this decision. I am still unfolding and discovering the long-term consequences of my own surgery, even 15 years later.

Wishing you all the best in your journey.

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Thank you @vcp02 for your input, that’s so informative and helpful! But I’m sorry that you’ve had such a long and painful journey to endure, and are still suffering the consequences…sending you a hug and praying that the sinus surgery helps & you don’t need the screws removed :hugs: :folded_hands:

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@vcp02 - What a journey you’ve experienced with your jaw joints. I’m sorry it’s been such an ordeal for you over so many years. I’m honestly seriously considering going to see Dr. King. My history w/ TMJ reigns back to elementary school in the 1960s. Though I haven’t had surgery, I have worn a splint at night for decades which has helped keep my jaw pain away, but I know my TMJs are a wreck so it’s just a matter of time before pain returns.

I also hope the sinus surgery helps & though the thought of you having the screws removed makes me shiver, it might ultimately be the solution to ending your sinusitis. I hope you don’t have to go that route though. :hugs: :folded_hands:

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Thank you so much for typing all that. That is a HUGE help. This is EXACTLY the type of crossover of experiences I’ve been looking to talk to someone about. I have quite a long response of my own. I tried to break it up into sections to make it easier to scan.

And I’m sorry you’re going through all that! I thought I had it bad with this being almost entirely untreated til my 30s, but tbh right now its sounding better than your scenario.

I’ll throw info on my personal case at the bottom, but first I am gonna kind of repeat back my understanding of your comment in my own words to see if I’m understanding it right. Context: I’m in my mid-30s and have an 8mm overjet and 100% deep bite.

My understanding of the case for me to get braces and orthognathic surgery:

It seems that most traditional orthodontists and OMS’s will tell you that if your jaw is as far into class II as mine is, there is no way around structurally fixing it. At least, that is my understanding not only from talking to them but also from looking online. The argument being that if your jaw is structurally deficient, no amount of splinting or PT can add jaw structure where it does not exist. And eventually you will develop forward head posture, sleep apnea, etc etc etc.

My understanding of the integrative dentist / TMJ specialist type approach

If I am understanding the modality that your dentist was advocating for, it aligned pretty closely to what a TMJ specialist I saw proposed to me. A multi-phase process that relies heavily supportive therapies like splints, PT, supplements, lifestyle modification, yeah? So, it won’t extend the bone like a surgery would, but it would almost supplement it via splint.

Surgery vs lifelong supportive therapies?

So the difference in approaches is between permanent skeletal alteration or relying on supportive stuff like splints forever, yeah? Both get the jaw into a better position, they just take different approaches. Am I putting that together correctly?

The Eagle Syndrome Tie-In

It sounds like we’ve both come to similar theories about this. I too think my ossification is from forward head posture. I think mine is from congenital recessed jaw forcing forward head posture my entire life. (Majorly recessed jaws run in my family, so I’m assuming its genetic.) Regardless of the true cause or solution, one way or another the damage is done.

So, to boil it down to a few main questions:

  • Does potentially knowing the cause of the ossification affect which surgery or surgeries I get and in what order?
  • Do I really want to even consider getting my jaw cut in half and screwed into a new position while potential styloidectomy is still a variable?
  • What are the risks or obstacles of trying styloidectomy first? (Pretty easy answer there. Its more expensive and harder to find a surgeon for. And, in some ways, it feels riskier because of all the important structures in that region. Hence Dr. Osborne’s advise to me to try everything else before styloidectomy).
  • What ways do these interconnect? You mentioned no other way around vascular impingement. I have been wondering the same. But I similarly wonder if fixing my jaw (via either method) would open up room around the vessels? This is what I need to find a vascular Eagle specialist for.

Now, just to provide basic background info about how my case differs from yours (in case it helps)

I’m 34 so, unfortunately, it puts me past the age of growth modification for class II. It does, fortunately, put me out of the range you mentioned about your brother-in-law

I think the big difference for me is I’ve never has braces in my life, so my bite is heavily compensated in a way that physically complicates even splint therapy. I did have a bionator (old school mandibular advancement device) for a year or two as a tween, which leads me to think recessive jaw has been my main cause the whole time. It helped my class II a little bit with growth modification. I am now learning that bionators are only Phase I and that I was supposed to have braces and probably a Herbst afterwards, but for some reason that never happened.

So, after all these years in class II, I’ve developed a pretty severe deep bite in addition to the original overjet.

As such, when faced with starting the TMJ splint therapy vs braces (with the potential for jaw surgery), I decided on braces. I realized that regardless of if I choose splints or surgery, it will be very hard to make any positive jaw changes without decompensating my deep bite. I would have liked to do splints first for comfort, but ultimately I didn’t want to go $6k in the hole for that and then still need another $6k of braces…and maybe syloidectomy to…etc etc you get the idea. Reading your post has definitely given me some food for thought on it all. For better or for worse I’m in it on the braces, though it sounds like they are only secondary to the big issues anyway.

And fortunately going with braces first has given me the added bonus that it gives me time to think about all of the options we discussed above. Hooray :sweat_smile:

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I’ll ask the moderators to chime in here, as my school of thought is solely based on my personal experience and not based off true expertise nor decades of cases assessments. <3

Kmarty14:

- Does potentially knowing the cause of the ossification affect which surgery or surgeries I get and in what order?
To some degree, it’s like asking what came first, the chicken or the egg. At the end of the day, you have ossification in an area that is resulting in complications, i.e., vascular impingement. The only benefit to knowing the possible cause would have been preventative care, which unfortunately we are all past on this forum.

- Do I really want to even consider getting my jaw cut in half and screwed into a new position while potential styloidectomy is still a variable?
I don’t see how a styloidectomy is entirely avoidable. I would correlate this to a foundation defect. It makes the most sense to me to align the neck (as the foundation) before aligning the jaw. My experience is a bit backwards, as I had my jaw fixed prior to the neck abnormalities. So, did the jaw surgery cause it, or was it inevitable given the skeletal defect?

- What are the risks or obstacles of trying styloidectomy first? (Pretty easy answer there. It’s more expensive and harder to find a surgeon for. And, in some ways, it feels riskier because of all the important structures in that region. Hence Dr. Osborne’s advice to me to try everything else before styloidectomy.)
Sadly, financial limitations can limit the quality of care patients are able to obtain. In the wrong hands, there is an array of serious complications that can occur. Given my experience with Dr. Osborne, I never felt at risk because of how incredibly qualified he is.

- What ways do these interconnect? You mentioned no other way around vascular impingement. I have been wondering the same. But I similarly wonder if fixing my jaw (via either method) would open up room around the vessels? This is what I need to find a vascular Eagle specialist for.
Since sharing my story with an integrative orthodontist, she has uncovered that the majority of her patients have ossification that is resulting in common “TMJ” symptoms. For a large majority, alteration of the jaw alignment has opened up space and helped alleviate some symptoms. However, the other half of the patients don’t obtain full resolution because, until now, they were unaware that the true diagnosis was indeed Eagle syndrome. (Again, her theory is that if the jaw isn’t aligned, ossification will return—accurate only if the full ossification isn’t properly removed.)

I was too young at the time to fully investigate the severity and classification of my case, so unfortunately, I can’t confidently assess your case and determine whether or not split therapy would be fully effective.

I would consider getting an assessment from other specialists, such as Dr. King, to get a clearer picture of what level of improvement or resolution could potentially be achieved without surgery. Recall that splint therapy is often utilized PRIOR to braces. The goal is align and grow the jaw properly so the teeth align naturally. ( without the need for extractions)

In my case, I wonder whether my underbite may have provided some degree of compensation. If my tongue had been able to adequately widen my soft palate, perhaps that, combined with the relatively minimal malocclusion, might have been enough to address at least some of the issues.

As you mentioned in your own case, you can’t add bone that simply isn’t there. That’s an important limitation to keep in mind when considering the different approaches.

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I know very little about this @vcp02 , I think your personal experience is far more useful to @Kmarty14 , you’ve been really helpful! :hugs:

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I second what @Jules said. You have spoken about a topic with which you are well acquainted & from which you have learned much. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge w/ @Kmarty14 as she considers the order of her surgeries. :heart_with_ribbon:

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I had bilateral styloidectomy with Osborne November 2025, still healing 10 months later, no improvement in symptoms, not doing well. I also need double jaw surgery. Osborne advised me that if I did jaw surgery before styloidectomies I’d have too much scar tissue in that area for him to surgically access and remove the styloids. He’s now telling me he’s never seen a patient heal as slowly as me. First he told me I’d see symptoms improve after 5 to 6 months, after 8 months he started telling me to give it 18 months. Wondering if I made the wrong decision but trying to be patient. That said, my surgery was unusually complicated, he said top 10 most difficult of his entire career. My left side took a little over 4 hours to remove.

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WOW! That is crazy. Yeah, Dr. Osborne said something similar to me about jaw surgery. We didn’t have a super in depth convo, but basically he mentioned concerns over the effects of jaw surgery affecting the “field” of surgery he’d be working on.

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@loki - I’m really sorry your recovery is moving so slowly. Do you mind sharing what symptoms you have left?

Would you be able to travel to see the integrative dentist who helped @vcp02 (see above posts) w/o surgery in case your situation could be dealt with non-surgically?

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It’s a long story, but if you saw one of the recent posts about someone saying they had sympathetic overdrive months after surgery with very high pulse and blood pressure, that is basically what happened to me. Can’t sleep or eat, physical tremors and shaking, emergency room visits, pulse going to 160 for hours on end despite feeling no anxiety, doctors administering benzos with no effect on the elevated pulse, etc, been ongoing for 10 months now. I’m also still extremely swollen. My first bite syndrome only became first bite syndrome around months 6 or 7. Before that every bite hurt incredibly badly the whole 15 or 20 minutes I would eat and it would trigger involuntary crying and sometimes screaming and my knees would buckle sometimes from the pain and I couldn’t stand. It was unbelievable. Only on my left side, which Dr. O said was one of the top 10 most difficult surgeries of his entire 25 year career and took around 4 hours 10 minutes. Visibly the swelling is very apparent to friends and family members without my pointing it out, after 10 months. Dr O said he’s never seen a patient heal as slow as me and can’t suggest any estimated healing timeline because I’m unlike anyone he’s encountered. Even though I told him a few months before surgery I had hEDS and it leads to poor wound healing and abnormal scarring, he said he was familiar with the condition and has worked on many patients with it. I’ve lost so much functioning I can’t even drive a car or go for walks anymore because my nervous system is on such overdrive. Tried various meds for sleep and anxiety and nothing works. Dr O says give it 18 months. I’m at 10 months and i would estimate my swelling has reduced maybe 35 to 45 percent, possibly 50 percent if I am being generous?

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Could you link the post about the integrative dentist and what issues it helped the person with? I’m not sure I’ve read the post yet or how it may or may not apply to my situation

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@loki - I am so very sorry for what you’ve gone through since your first styloidectomy. I had a similar experience w/ first bite syndrome except mine started 5 days after my first styloidectomy. It also didn’t last through my whole meal, but the pain was excruciating for 10-15 seconds once it started. It gradually decreased in intensity over the first year post op. I am now 12 years out from my first ES surgery & am happy to say that my first bite symptoms are nearly gone now. That’s intended to give you hope that yours may settle down over time, too. I was offered nerve pain meds to help them settle, but I declined them. Perhaps that could help you? I recall from a previous post of yours that you’ve tried a lot of things including steroids & nothing seems to be helping reduce your pain/swelling. Have you considered finding a myofascial massage therapist? Some of our members who’ve had slower healing & more inflammation &/or tissue development have found some good relief via myofascial massage.

Here are links to a couple of posts where @vcp02 talks about her integrative dentist experience. In the first one, @Snapple2020 who also has hEDS included an interesting chart, which might be helpful for you, about other compressions that are somewhat common for people who have hEDS:

If you aren’t familiar with the Zebras Underground site (zebras.substack.com), it’s worth checking out. Lots of information relative to EDS. Another site that could be helpful for you is bendybodiespodcast.com or Podcast — Hypermobility MD (may be the same site). The podcasts are by Dr. Linda Bluestein who has hEDS herself.

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Dear Loki, @loki

I am so sorry to hear about your difficult recovery. My recovery post jaw surgery shares some similarities as well. My surgeon also mention my case was unlike any other given the delay on my recovery, with intense swelling noted for months on end. Dr. Osbone never noted concerns about my scaring due to my past history, not sure if it was because it was 20 years prior or what. My neck however was so “tight” he had to remove my right styloid in pieces because he couldn’t fit his instruments inside. There is a newer forum “Eaglesyndrome.net” that Dr. Osborne has helped created. The founder Malvin has created some really supportive videos that explained how difficult the recovery process can be both mentally and physically. Often times one step forward and three steps back. I would encourage you to take a look at that community as well. Its given myself some piece of mind.

That being said, there is always the possibility of co-existing conditions. Dr. Middleton in florida actually advised against my styloidectomy because he felt my real diagnosis was CCI. His concern was it could possibly add to instability if a ligament was removed. There is quite the debate on the effectiveness of ePICL and prolotherapy ( note this is not accurate treatment for Eagle syndrome) but perhaps insight on that could guide you a bit further.

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I don’t really have pain or TMJ issues as symptoms. I still have some pain from first bite syndrome but it’s transient with eating now, 10 months out. My TMJ joints and condyles have been evaluated by orthognathic surgeons and are relatively healthy but I have soft tissue subluxation of the jaws due to hEDS and my jaws need to be advanced by about 12mm both maxilla and mandible. My maxilla also needs about 6 to 8mm of transverse expansion via palate expander (marpe/fme) or segmental lefort… my occlusion isn’t too bad besides bruxism and needing transverse expansion. Teeth are relatively straight, only mild crowding in the front that isn’t particularly noticeable to outsiders. The main issue is I’m having crazy high pulse and blood pressure, physical tremors and shaking, unable to sleep, eat, drive a car, go for walks, socialize, work, etc. I can’t even be a passenger in a car because my pulse goes crazy. I do not feel anxious at all. Just crazy erratic pulse that is high at all times and gets even higher with any kind of movement, loud noises, bright lights, over stimulation etc. If I remain incredibly still in a dark quiet room with my eyes closed I am least symptomatic but still physically shaking with tremors and high pulse at all times. Dr. Osborne has said just wait 18 months and recommended nothing else, no testing, no referrals to other doctors, no medications etc. I’ve tried various things, propranolol, clonidine, mirtazepine, trazodone, hydroxyzine, etc with no effect on symptoms at all

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I agree on that thought, too many chefs in the kitchen can send you in so many directions. It leads to things being over complicated and medications being over prescribed with their own risks. I hope in time your sympathetic system gets out of over drive and your pulse levels out. Heart palpitations were common for me a few months post op and I found some relief with icing my vagus nerve, as advised by a few on this forum. Please keep us posted on your progress. I truly believe you are in the best hands with Dr. Osborne.

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I’ve questioned whether getting the surgery was a mistake. My symptoms never really aligned with the typical symptoms of dizziness or lightheadedness when turning one direction, difficulty swallowing, etc. I never had throat pain or any of that. All of my symptoms aligned with my severe sleep apnea and every doctor I talked to, sleep specialists, nose surgeons, jaw surgeons, orthodontists, periodontists, dentists, ALL advised me AGAINST styloidectomy and said eagle syndrome was not relevant in my case… but my styloids were 7.3 and 8cm each and the imaging was suggestive of compressed, especially on CT with IV contrast…

However, Dr. O showed me my CT with IV contrast and indicated significant IJV compression. 8 months later I got follow up CT w IV contrast on mu neck and asked him to review it with me… it looked the same. He then told me the IJV will never look decompressed on CT scan and that’s just how it looks on normal people without eagles (pinched off near the jaw area), due to the nature of imaging the area and the skeletal anatomy in the area, he said the vein will never look like it has popped open after surgery on imaging even once swelling is gone and it’s decompressed. So, the only reason I got the surgery was because he showed me my CT w IV contrast and said the IJV looked 50 percent compressed on the imaging, then 8 months later it looked the same and he told me normal people’s images would also look like that on the CT w contrast and that the IJV will never look decompressed on imaging. It felt very duplicitous. He also told me he was going to remove my styloids all the way to the skull base but then left 1.3cm on one side and 2cm on the other side AND didn’t tell me he had left that much until 8 months later, but paraded around the photos of the 6cm he removed from each side to me after the surgery as if it was some great victory while omitting the fact that he’d left 1.3 and 2cm on each side.

I still believe he did a good job and I went with the right person, but I am questioning whether he was negligent to even give me the surgery… I’m not sure I was a good candidate. He told me to try EVERYTHING else before getting surgery and I told him I agreed and I needed jaw surgery, nose surgery, and orthodontic palate expansion to fix my sleep apnea and that it would be a roughly 5 year process and that I wasn’t sure I should get styloidectomies at all considering I believed 100 percent of my symptoms were related to severe sleep apnea and poor daytime breathing, he then advised me that if I got jaw surgery first he would be unable to perform the styloidectomies due to scarring in the surgical site he would need to access. Also, when I told him I needed jaw surgery, nose surgery, SFOT, palate expansion etc, he suggested that maybe I “only needed one surgery”, as in maybe all of my symptoms were just eagles and I was overthinking the rest of it… while I appreciate the possibility that the styloidectomies may eventually heal enough to alleviate some or many of my symptoms, the suggestion that my orthognathic surgeons, ENTs, orthodontists etc are wrong is offensive. I’ve had all sorts of testing and imaging done. I broke my nose very badly as a child and have been told by doctors that it is ‘the worst nose’ they’ve seen in their entire career. I have severe gum disease. Severe sleep apnea. Jaws are severely retrognathic. I need 6 to 8mm transverse expansion and 12mm maxillary and mandibular advancement, I have hEDS, MCAS. POTS, etc… he was way out of line with that statement.

My life has been hell since the surgery. I’ve had repeated ER visits. I sleep 1 to 2 hours a night. Osborne and his staff has done nothing. They took me 67,500$ and just left me hanging, completely alone with no medical support. His staff, especially Terry, were just awful. They told me, “you’ll sleep eventually”… 10 months later and here I am sleeping 2 hours a night with a pulse of 160 for several hours a day and all they do when I go to the ER is shoot me up with benzos which causes even worse insomnia and higher pulse. I told Osborne I needed jaw surgery and nose surgery and had severe sleep apnea and he told me I couldn’t do styloidectomies if I fixed my sleep and breathing first. I fear he may have pointed me in the wrong direction, but I remain patient that another 8 months of healing may see some symptom relief. I’m as swollen today at 10 months as I was 4 months ago. My body cannot heal without sleep.

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@loki - Based on information in your post above, I’m wondering if you’ve consulted w/ any of the surgeons we know of who do styloidectomies AND IJV decompressions? If not, I think it would be a prudent next step for you for several reasons:

  1. You noted: Dr. O showed me my CT with IV contrast and indicated significant IJV compression…8 months later I got follow up CT w IV contrast on mu neck and asked him to review it with me… it looked the same…He then told me the IJV will never look decompressed on CT scan and that’s just how it looks on normal people without eagles (pinched off near the jaw area), due to the nature of imaging the area and the skeletal anatomy in the area, he said the vein will never look like it has popped open after surgery on imaging even once swelling is gone and it’s decompressed.

My experience on this forum (I’ve been here since 2014) after reading thousands of posts by hundreds of members is that the information you were given is incorrect. We have numerous pictures on our forum which members have posted after IJV decompression which show plumper & significantly more open IJVs post op. When an IJV is properly decompressed, it absolutely shows up looking so in imaging.

Usually we see IJV compression at the styloid/C1 junction. An IJV that looks compressed at the jaw level is typically being compressed by soft tissues such as nerve, muscle, scar, lymph, other vascular, or fascia. I suspect that your IJV is still compressed by soft tissues & that soft tissue compression wasn’t noted & dealt with during your surgery.

  1. He also told me he was going to remove my styloids all the way to the skull base but then left 1.3cm on one side and 2cm on the other side

When styloids are left that long, they are most likely not cut off above the styloid/C1 junction which is necessary for IJV decompression to occur if the styloid is the primary compressor. If C1 is the primary compressor, then elongated styloids still need to be shortened, & the transverse processes of C1 need to be cut back enough to make room for the IJV(s) to open completely.

  1. The main issue is I’m having crazy high pulse and blood pressure, physical tremors and shaking, unable to sleep, eat, drive a car, go for walks, socialize, work, etc. I can’t even be a passenger in a car because my pulse goes crazy. I do not feel anxious at all. Just crazy erratic pulse that is high at all times and gets even higher with any kind of movement, loud noises, bright lights, over stimulation etc.

The vagus nerve is in close quarters w/ the IJVs w/in the carotid sheath up near the skull base. Thus when the IJVs suffer compression, so does the vagus nerve. I expect you know by now that the vagus nerve controls a large number of our bodies’ functions including but not limited to - blood pressure, heart rate, breathing, swallowing, coughing, body temperature, vocalization, gastrointestinal function, bladder, bowel & sexual function. Even your tremors could be linked to it. The vagus nerve is one of the cranial nerves most often irritated by elongated styloids even when IJV compression is absent. With symptoms as profound as yours, I am highly suspicious that your vagus nerve was irritated by your styloidectomies, & now w/ the unresolved IJV compression the symptoms have increased to an intolerable level for you.

I think a good next step for you would be to have a consult w/ one or two of the doctors below just to get their more experienced opinion about how your IJV compression may be affecting you since it was basically dismissed the first time around. We have many members w/ hEDS, MCAS, & related problems/compressions. Most of the doctors doing IJV decompressions associated w/ ES are familiar w/ hEDS & how it affects the human body so don’t turn a blind eye to the extra care patients who have hEDS may need.

Doctors you could consider consulting are (I’m suggesting those who are booking less far ahead first):

Dr. Costantino - 4 Westchester Park Dr, 4th floor, White Plains, (914) 517-8056
http://www.nyhni.org/find-a-physician/Peter-D-Costantino-MD,FACS .
Does phone/video consults. Email Shantel for an appointment - SMorrison@iss.org

Dr. Liu - •Dr. James K. Liu, 200 S. Orange Ave, Ste. 265, Livingston NJ, Dr. James K. Liu | Top Neurosurgeon in Livingston, NJ Does phone/video consults.

Dr. Nakaji - https://www.scottsdaleclinic.com Scottsdale Neurosurgery Specialists - 602-313-7772
Works w/ vascular ES, has also done a research paper about shaving C1 process as well as styloidectomy. Does not do initial phone consults

Dr. Srinivasan - Neurosurgeon at Penn Medicine - https://www.pennmedicine.org/providers/visish-srinivasan Works together with Dr. Brody to do styloidectomies & C1 shaving for IJV compression

Dr. Hepworth - Denver Sinus Care, 3150 E 3rd Ave, Denver, CO 80206 (720) 899-9489, FAX (720) 953-5151, email: info@denversinuscare.com or for initial consults - kcurry@denversinuscare.com Does not do initial phone consults

Dr. Cognetti - Thomas Jefferson University Hospital, Philadelphia 215- 955- 6760, Works with Dr Heller now to do C1 shaves, David M Cognetti MD | Jefferson Health Does phone consults.

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