“Fasciotomy”

Recently, I posted in some groups in an attempt to connect with patients who are also approx 1 month out from decompression surgery, and received some slightly disorienting information from a few patients.

While I don’t have blind faith in what they believe, I wanted to share here in order to maybe gain clarity from others who have a more sophisticated understanding of differing surgical approaches to complex decompression.

The first patient told me that her recent procedure with Dr Liu included “a styloidectomy, C1 shave, and some lymph nodes removed” in addition to what she referred to as a “fasciotomy”.

I had never heard this term before, so asked her to elaborate.

She said that: “Dr. Liu believes, for true full decompression, the fasciotomy is key. All of our muscles were / are tight, stabilizing us, inflamed, freaking out etc. It breaks up the muscle tissue around the vein so it has more room to open up”.

She asked me if my Dr had “decompressed the IJV clearly?” To which I replied that it was visualized to expand after decompression in my procedure notes.

Then she asked if my Dr had “done any scans after the surgery?”. I explained that I’m scheduled for an ultrasound 3 months post but was not “scanned” immediately after surgery.

When I said that I believed my surgeon had probably done something to help with fascia in surgery( I.e. like some a version of a “fasciotomy” but that it might not have been called that), she bluntly replied:

“Hepworth doesn’t do a fasciotomy, only Liu does currently. Liu goes behind the ear. Yours is probably on your neck”. She also shared that she had a CTV “within hours of her procedure” and questioned wether a jugular ultrasound was even an accurate test.

One thing I’ve clarified since by talking to different patient is that it’s not just Dr Liu that does this. Constantino and possibly others do incisions behind the ear and also use the term “fasciotomy” to describe part of the decompression procedures they do.

Anyway, I know that we can’t always rely on other patients to be gentle with us while we are struggling post op.

At best it wasn’t comforting to have another patient imply that the surgery I just had was somehow lacking or insufficient.

At the same time, I empathize with some patients need to feel that they went to the best surgeon or got a better procedure than others as that may be comforting to them on some level. It’s not a competition of course, but life and death scenarios seem to bring out certain characteristics in people.

I take most of what was said with salt, but I would be lying if I wasn’t also a bit concerned about “fascia” now, as silly as that might be. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if fascia isn’t contributing to allot of pain and discomfort I have daily throughout my whole body, so I don’t want to underestimate the stuff!

The procedure I had seems thorough to me and was with a surgeon I respect very much. I had a bilateral C1 shave, styloidectomy, scar tissue/ lymph node removal. The incision was on my neck/ not behind my ear.

Anyway, this is a very long winded way of asking: Do others here know the difference between what some surgeons( Liu, Constantino) are calling a “fasciotomy” versus the fascia work that surgeons like Hepworth do, and is there any merit to the idea that one approach produces a better results? The idea that a procedure behind the ear is automatically superior to one through the neck also seems silly to me, but at the same time, I don’t actually know why surgeons choose one entry point over the other.

Thanks for reading or for any feedback. It just felt better to write something here than to sit alone with these questions. :butterfly::rainbow::seedling::two_hearts:

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I have never heard of this but thank you for sharing because it’s very interesting!

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I wouldn’t read too much into the incision location being “better” one way or the other. My surgeries were actually done both ways, my left side was a smaller incision near the ear, and my right side was done through a much larger prior incision from a total parotidectomy.

In my case, the approach clearly had more to do with existing anatomy and scarring. On the right side, using the prior parotidectomy incision gave my surgeon a much wider, more direct view, which worked out well since that styloid was angled in right at the skull base. For context, that scar runs from my ear almost to the center of my neck, so it gave significantly more exposure than a typical smaller incision. I’m sure he could have used the smaller near-ear approach, but I’m glad he chose to take advantage of the prior incision.

My impression is that the smaller, near-ear incisions are often chosen to minimize visible scarring, while larger or alternative approaches are used when better exposure is needed. So it seems less about one being superior, and more about tailoring the approach to the situation, anatomy, prior surgery, and access. And of course, the surgeon’s preference and experience with ES. They all seem to have different views on what is necessary to achieve adequate decompression.

Personally, I feel whichever approach gives the best chance for a successful outcome is more important than the access point. Any remaining battle scars just validate the years I spent advocating for myself.

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@Glitterbats Both of my incisions are in the neck, 1.5 years out and you would have no idea unless I pointed them out and you looked very closely. Dr. Nakaji saw that the carotid sheath was part of the compressive force on the right side and performed a fasciotomy along with resecting the styloid, C1 shave and dissecting some muscles. The left side only required the styloid and C1. From what Dr. Nakaji told me, it sounds like he occasionally speaks with the group of surgeons who are performing most of these surgeries and they share information as to what they are finding are compressive forces and that’s where he learned to look at the carotid sheath.

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As far as I’m aware, all muscles, blood vessels etc are covered in fascia, and that where there’s been inflammation adhesions can form meaning that the fascia of different anatomical structures stick to each other & don’t glide over each other which is what is supposed to happen. So if during your surgery scar tissue was removed (presumably this can cause adhesions meaning the fascia doesn’t glide properly?), and the IJV was examined to ensure blood flowed properly again, then this is what needed to be done, and basically the same procedure? That would be my understanding…
Surgeons choose the incision site that they feel best suits them and their patient’s situation, so I wouldn’t say one is better than another- unless comparing intra-oral & external surgeries obviously. The VES doctors have all done successful surgeries, and I think have probably all done revision surgeries occasionally for each others’ patients! So not possible to say that one of them is better than another…
I hope this helps and I hope that you’re seeing improvements after your surgery? :hugs:

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Thanks for your response. Yes, I was thinking that it’s impossible to not cut/ alter the fascia situation in the area with a procedure like this. I just hope that the overall impact will be positive and that I won’t be held back by something as annoying as fascial adhesions. The scar tissue removal was something that was discussed pre op and isn’t really included in the procedure notes so much, but I may have to re-read them to refresh my memory to see if there is anything in there mentioning fascia or scar tissue. I can’t say that I’m doing great or feeling better, but I don’t feel worse off than I was pre-op or like it was a mistake. Fatigue, PEM, tachycardia, orthotic intolerance, inflammation, and maybe mast cell stuff is all still very present right now. This is why I wanted to talk to others at a similar point in the healing process to myself. However so far, I haven’t been able to find anyone very good to talk to who had surgery around the same time as me and the bit’s and pieces others have shared with me make it clear that 1) everyone heals/ responds different, and 2) some people absolutely do feel better immediately after surgery and feel very good 4 weeks out. :woman_shrugging: Anyway, I agree with you about the fascia thing and that it makes sense hypothetically that anything and everything that was compressing/ interfering with the jugular would have been removed or repositioned during the procedure.

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I like how thoughtful your post is, @Glitterbats. Instead of writing from a place of panic, you wrote a very reasoned post with good questions. I agree with what the other responders have said. Of the surgeons on our list who do vascular compressions, my guesstimate is that Dr. Costantino is the most aggressive with the procedure as he always removes the posterior digastric muscle & has Dr. Tobias remove the whole TP of C1. Dr. Hepworth may be the least aggressive, but that doesn’t mean he’s not thorough in removing what he sees to be causing IJV compression. He removes the least amount of C1 he sees necessary to give the IJV room to open thus better preserving the integrity of C1 & only shaves a bit off muscles that appear to contribute to compression. I know he removes any fascia that is problematic though it’s not likely referred to as a fasciotomy per se in his surgical report.

I also agree that where an incision is placed is doctor preference & can be related to where the surgeon feels it’s necessary to provide the best access & surgical results.

We’ve had members who didn’t have immediate response to their IJV decompressions & even some who went back on blood thinners during their surgical recoveries as IH & headaches were still a significant problem, but as the months passed, the symptoms slowly subsided & the medications were stopped & those members began to have significant symptoms reduction.

Trusting your body’s ability to heal & providing it with patience to take the time it needs plus a positive mind set can help a lot with healing. It sounds like you’re doing your best to offer those things to yourself as your recovery moves along. :hugs:

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It is still early days, and it seems pretty common for those who have had significant compression, especially for a while , that it can take weeks for the body to adjust. And also if there are any issues with the other side then sometimes the results won’t be obvious until that’s done. But as long as you’re not feeling worse, that’s a positive to hang on to! :hugs:
Praying you see improvements soon :folded_hands:

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Honestly, as someone who has had a similar procedure, the ultrasound is not a valid tool. Hepworth is the only surgeon that does it. What is key is the post op imaging. Of which showed, I am still very compressed.

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What “post op” imaging are you referring to? Are you a Hepworth patient? Respectfully, saying something isn’t reliable just because only one doctor uses it is an appeal to authority, not actual evidence about whether it works.

@Glitterbats - I think the post op imaging @Brandy referred to is a CTV. Some people get them soon after surgery which doesn’t make sense because post op swelling can continue to cause IJV compression. They should be done 6-8 weeks post op after most of the swelling has subsided.

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Yes, I was assuming it was probably a CTV but was asking since it wasn’t specified. I agree about it being weird to do a scan when there is still significant swelling present also.

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Thankyou Jules! I really hope my recovery might just take a bit longer and that I won’t need the other side done. TBH I think I had such a challenging baseline prior to surgery that it’s hard to tell, but I can’t say with confidence that I’m officially worse off. At the same time, this recovery has been hard in ways I didn’t anticipate and I also can’t say that I’m in the clear. Anyway, I appreciate and welcome your encouragement and well wishes.

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Thankyou so much! I am certainly trying to remain somewhat calm but I have been moments of panic( just don’t need to write from that place).

What you say about Constantino definitely makes sense and that more aggressive approach was one of the main reasons I didn’t feel he would be the right fit to my case(mostly bc I had a hyper focus on maintaining as much of C1’s integrity as possible, etc). Haha, I cringed when I read about the “shaving of muscles”, I actually wasn’t even thinking about the fact that they do that. Yuck. Well, hopefully it all helps :sweat_smile:.

It completely makes sense to me that Dr H would remove whatever he deems to be a contributing factor in the compression.

I’m very encouraged to hear that you’ve witnessed other patients take longer to recover but who do still recover/ experience improvements. It can be hard when you can’t find anyone who’s your exact medical twin who’s had this surgery to touch base with.

Thankyou for your acknowledgment and I’m certainly trying maintain a positive mindset and be patient, but honestly both are a daily struggle. My nervous system has been so compromised for so long that it feels really hard if not impossible for me to trust this process more than I am. Hopefully my doing imperfect recovery and having occasional melt downs will still allow my body to heal well enough. One thing I know for sure, is it’s been a long time coming which I also understand is true for many others here.

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I was. He did my surgery. Many get a CTA/CTV at the 3 month mark. I did mine at 5 months. You can get this done anywhere. You do not have to travel to Denver to get it down. Much more info will come from imaging vs ultrasound.

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Well, I’m very sorry to hear that the decompression surgery was not successful. Did you get some partial benefit from the procedure? Also, are you continuing to work with Hepworth to try to address ongoing issues/ get a stent or are you working with another surgeon now?

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It’s too early for you at the moment I would think, but @Chrickychricky has posted some very interesting info about neuroplasticity … I think we’re seeing many members now who have complicated medical histories with multiple conditions, so it makes sense that things take time to heal & some re-training might need to be done!
The Science Behind the Symptoms is a great podcast. Attaching a link to an episode on POTS - General - Living with Eagle
Thinking of you :hugs: :hugs: :folded_hands:

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Well given I am going in for revision in about 10 days, I am dealing with the result of an ES surgeon whom believed that just taking the styloids out will decompress everything. This doc did not look at IJC compression at all or speak of it although the pre-surgery scan shows clear evidence of it and is still there post op. I had shared with that doc my history of adhesions (hEDS) and how some docs suspected scar tissue in my neck from having prolo. and how I was having shooting pain up my neck to my ear. I was led to believe this adhesions would be addressed and they were not. Pieces of the styloid were left in my neck. I dont think that doc wanted to address my adhesions or dig around and do more than remove the styloids at skulls base. The Op report does not include pictures of what is removed or any measurements.

Fast forward 5 years with worsening dizziness, sharp change hearing loss, new pulsitive tinnitus and other worsening pressure symptoms in my neck and temples. When I got my regular botox to relax all these muscles, I hesitated to get any in the upper neck before surgery but my neurologist said it would help for them to be more relaxed during surgery. I do know my adhesions will be addressed this time around and hope my IJVs will stay open but I suspect they have been compressed for a very long time and would not be surprised if they didn’t stay open. I trust the surgeon to do that right thing and know he is one of the top 5 in the country and they all will have different approaches and differences in procedures. I will say that I saw a recent podcast of a team of 5 docs from all over the country (Not eagles docs) but there was one female doc out of U of Minnesota who is doing a variety of things to address head, neck & jaw pain that include botox, dry needling and the like, way more than my neurologist. There was a mention of shaving down neck muscles to reduce their size and relieve how taut they were. I made note of her name and location and thought maybe I should have seen her years ago. Ive been trying to get someone to address adhesions in my neck for years but they are difficult to see on imaging. I had never heard of this shaving before. Im not sure you would call it “fasciotomy” per se, she used the word shaving. Sorry for my book.

I do recall that I really didn’t start feeling good after my first ES surgeries until about 6 weeks out and then big jump at 12 weeks. 6 months was in decent shape but still healing.

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Thank you for the interesting information re: “muscle shaving” & for sharing your story @Snapple2020. You always present interesting & helpful information in your posts. I’m sorry it’s because of all you’ve been through over the years that you’re so well informed, but we definitely appreciate you sharing your knowledge & resources! :heart:

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I’m sorry that not everything was addressed during your first ES surgery, but will be thinking of you and praying for good results with your revision surgery… I agree with @Isaiah_40_31 that you’ve been so helpful here with all your knowledge, I’m glad you’re here but not glad that it’s because you need more surgery! :hugs: :folded_hands:

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